Lube for lee sizers, and order of operations for hardening, sizing, etc.

[dromia]

Need to be very hard for 48000 cups. Aiming for 30 BHN minimum. 48000 works out to 37 BHN for obturation.

What on earth makes you think that?

BHN is only part of the velocity criteria and a relatively small part at that.

Where are you getting your misguided information from?

It seems to me that you are building your loads an very shaky knowledge foundation.

[Forgetful]

What on earth makes you think that?

BHN is only part of the velocity criteria and a relatively small part at that.

Where are you getting your misguided information from?

It seems to me that you are building your loads an very shaky knowledge foundation.

MO Bullet says to compute BHN this way: CUPS/1279.8=BHN.

.30-06 and 50BMG are both 48,000 CUPS.

Very shaky indeed. Not like we need to take obturation into account, right? Certainly not to some shaky beginner.

My suggestion be to use 45/45/10, ignore the moly, and go shoot!

Moly is going in the lube for pushing rifle velocities. Pistols don't need the moly at all, nor calibers such as 45-70.

I don't want to shoot jacketed projectiles. I do want to follow people's advice, no matter how conflicting it is. If it's too hard to obturate, I won't get the velocity because the pressure will bleed. If I get the velocity, it'll have lead sloughing off.. I really need to find the magic zone where it obturates and I get ~2500fps without sloughing. The only way I'll get there is if I combine everything I'm told and experiment in that zone.

[dromia]

Good boolit fit and concentricity to the bore.

A tough not hard alloy.

Good lube.

Slow powders.

That would be my starting point.

[wmitty]

Forgetful:

Regarding your question about running boolits thru a Lee push thru die without lube; I have done this for years with no buildup or other problems; in fact I was rather shocked when I read that lubing before sizing was required.

[MT Chambers]

I have access to lots of moly powder and tried it on all manner of different bullets, of diff. hardness, I tried tumbling it with walnut shells also with steel BBs, it offered no advantage over carnauba lube in my sizers, accuracy was not as good, and it gets everywhere and is hard to clean off.

[Jackpine]

Forgetful,

I use Alox and have always lubed before sizing, whether using a Lee push thru or a lyman lube sizer. (without lube it the sizer) I do this because that is what Lee recommends and because there are very few situations where two surfaces bear against each other under pressure that will not benefit from lube, and altho I am sure the distortion caused with a non lubed bullet is very small, I want to eliminate any possibility of un needed distortion.

That being said, the amount of lube that I apply before sizing is about 1/10 of that used after. Because you are running the bullet thru the die for one inch and very low speed, vs down a two foot barrel at MUCH higher speed, it just logical that much less is needed. If I am doing large batches, I use Alox diluted half and half with mineral spirits and apply in a Zip lock bag. Yesterday I was going to size 20 bullets for a specific trial I am doing and I simply applied it by putting the lube on thumb and forefinger and rolling the bullets. I used no more than three drops for the twenty bullets, with half of that ending up staying on my fingers. I probably use much less lube for the final lubing than most people. I warm the lube and apply 1 1/2 drops for a 150 grain bullet up to 5 drops per bullet for a 530 grain bullet, measured in a teaspoon. (I have determined how many drops there are per teaspoon. I could probably get by with the "squirt in a guessed amount, but believe consistency is important with all reloading steps) I think with the small amount the zip lock bag does a more even job of applying the lube than a tub. All of my loads chrono between 1000 and 1600 fps. I hate cleaning guns and don't do it very often, but have never found leading in any of my guns.

One more point about lubing before sizing. I know people use lots of different lubes to prelube, such as Pam, WD-40, Remoil, that spray on or just go on more quickly. I have thought about doing this, but have wondered whether having a lube of a different type under the final Alox application could have some impact on the consistency or change the lubricity of the Alox, so I have chosen to just stay with the diluted Alox.

Good luck with your quest. Keep in mind that free advice is usually worth what you pay for it, sometimes less and don't be afraid to ask for backup of opinions and then apply some past experience and common sense.

Jackpine

[Forgetful]

Well, they look great with their impact coating, shiny and polished. It's nice I didn't have to wash off lube at any point, and I didn't make a mess at any time. The sizers for pistols don't need lube, but you do for rifle calibers. The moly spray did a great job lubing for the sizer, let me explain. I could lube 300 bullets in about 10 seconds, and the MoS2 seems to stick to lead much better than anything else. After the shaker/tumbler polishing, all the moly comes off the copper-plated steel BB's as well as off the inside of the bottles I'm using, to stick to the lead. There is no moly in the sizer after doing a Q-Tip check.

Again, I intend to be pushing 2250fps as a minimum in both calibers. I'm finally going to be loading the brass today after prepping it all. After uniforming the primer pockets, flash holes, neck length, chamfer, polishing, and sorting.. I'm going to have a few more steps for the boolits than simply "drop in water, lube and load." I have to consider if some of this advice is better suited for pistols only.

Johnson's Paste Wax is unavailable where I live, but I substituted another brand of floor-wax paste (carnauba based) and that took the tackiness out of the pure alox and seems to have the same effect. Thanks for everyone's help in getting this sorted out. I still have to expand the necks and measure loads and press it all together, but shooting these should be just around the corner. Will be using a "ProChrono" for velocities and hopefully have a nice afternoon taking slow groups and recording all the data. What a journey! No wonder its considered addictive! If you don't have OCD before, you will!

[facetious]

I have used dri-lube spray on boolits before sizing in Lee's push through dies. Thy go through slick as can be and so slick that you can't hardly hold on to them after words. I size them soon after casting and water dropping them while thy are still soft and not age hardened yet and then lube them in the lube sizer as I need them.

I have been told that I should not use use dri-lube on them but have never heard a good reason why. Thy get lubed over in the lube sizer so the dri-lube is covered up by the lube. has any one else heard of this?

[Forgetful]

I have been told that I should not use use dri-lube on them but have never heard a good reason why. Thy get lubed over in the lube sizer so the dri-lube is covered up by the lube. has any one else heard of this?

I've heard that, but it only applied to *only* using dry-lube as your bullet lube, or moly-plated jacketed bullets. Something about the moly embedding in the bore and the sulfide reacting with the iron.

Moly in the lube is a good thing. Lubed moly-plated bullets, the lube doesn't care. Moly-coated bullets (not plated) will shed lube since it's like lubing a powder-coated bullet without the bake cycle to make it stick.

[Pinsnscrews]

Forgetful, in the Castboolit section, there is a Thread Discussion on High Velocity shooting with Cast boolits. On Page 10 of that discussion is a LONG post #183. You can read that specific post or not, but what is of value here is the Photos of the Pressure Sessions. Just so you can see what the Pressures come out to as well as the Velocity of the rounds from Ohler Equipment. ALL of the boolits used in that session were

As you mentioned the BHN of Larry’s #2 alloy WQ’d NOE XCB bullets is 21. That alloy and that bullet when properly sized at .311 and lubed with 2500+ provides less than 2 moa accuracy to 2700+ fps so far. That has been out of my Palma rifle in .308W with a 14” twist 27.6” long barrel.

Now SAAMI lists the 30-06 at 600MAP and the 308W at 620MAP

So, I think that it is safe to say that it is not necessary to work on a BHN of 30 when you have actual pressure and velocity readings for a BHN of 21 at over 2500+fps out of a .308W

I put in bold in the Quote just to highlight the information and not as a method of shouting.