Bullet expansion important in 45-70?

[offshore44]

<snip>

There is such thing as too much effect ya know. (See my sig line)

Yup, too much of a good thing is sometimes a bad thing.

[44man]

Alloy your bullets relative to the velocity you will use, this way you can get both penetration and expansion, I go for the largest meplat possible with the .45/70, such as WFN designs from LBT or Tom at Accurate.

Alloy is the proper answer. I have lost deer with the 45-70 BFR shot with a WFN hard cast. Last I recovered went over 200 yards with nary a blood trail for 100 yards but I knew where it was going. My boolit would have worked if slower, 1200 to 1300 fps but at 1600+, it poked a hole with no damage to lungs, they were still pink with just a hole.
Don't believe the 1/2" hole stuff. My boolit would work better for a very large animal but deer are small. Need some expansion. Soft in the caliber has always worked.
I make no claims as to what my boolit would do at 1800 fps+, I just don't know.
I would never depend on meplat only, seems there is a huge pressure wave that moves tissue out of the boolit path if the wrong velocity.
I see the same bad results with a hard boolit, 440 gr from my .500 JRH at 1350 fps. There is a point with velocity or boolit weight where expansion HAS to be there.
Don't bring in it is where you hit stuff, There is a point of failure with a perfect hit unless you hit the spine.

[fredj338]

Depends on what you are hunting I guess. There is enough mass for good penetration, even with some serious expansion. For 250# & smaller game, I would prefer expansion.

[seaboltm]

I always thought of a 458 bullet as a "pre-expanded" 30 caliber bullet.

[MBTcustom]

Depends on what you are hunting I guess. There is enough mass for good penetration, even with some serious expansion. For 250# & smaller game, I would prefer expansion.

45-70 with hollow points: Because sometimes, dead just aint dead enough.

[zuke]

Anything that walk's away with a near 1/2 inch hole in it and survives shouldn't be hunted with something that "small"

[44man]

I always thought of a 458 bullet as a "pre-expanded" 30 caliber bullet.

They were my thoughts too. I always do great with the .44 so when I got the BFR 45-70 I thought the additional speed would work better. That did not work so I made a WFN and it also failed. I had good shots and sure I killed them but could not find them. No blood trail here and you will never track one, just too many tracks. Babore had sent me some 50-50 HP's so I oven hardened them, sighted in and blew the snot out of the next deer, destroyed an entire shoulder at exit. Bloodshot all up and down, neck to butt. These hardened to near 20 BHN but did not slow expansion at all. I am thinking a soft nose, no HP, next time or 75-25 alloy.
The big, flat HP's shown might be too much of a good thing.
I shoot a lot of deer, usually 7 a year and have made many mistakes. It is no fun to spend hours searching for a deer and come up empty, so someone can keep the 1/2" hole idea. Lungs are mostly air and need busted up instead of poked.
What is forgotten is the expanded 30 cal has provided massive energy. Each caliber and velocity is different so my search for perfection with each will continue.
The 45-70 can be both worlds, lost animals or a cloud of red mist with pre-ground meat. I never figured a revolver to be so destructive, last deer I shot was with a Hornady rifle bullet and it worked fine, did not trust my boolits. I still need to find the middle ground.
I suggest not to look for dead flat boolits either.

[44man]

I did all the tests with water jugs, soaked paper and it is not the real world, neither is a block of Jello. I got beautiful flat, .44 240 XTP's but shot my first three deer with them and I seen them go down over 60 yards because it was open. I recovered all three bullets at the rib cages. I back tracked and found a zero blood trail. I back track every deer.
Not good so I went to the 320 LBT and there was gallons of blood to track. I could run a trail if I could run.
Energy dump and ME does not kill good if you can't find what you shot.
Energy kills to be sure but it is where the energy is put before exit and two holes are always better.
We have members here that shot very large animals with HP's and found they did not work.

[Dan Cash]

The only deer I have killed with a .45-70 was with a 540 grain Creedmoor style bullet over 70 grains of black powder fired from my Sharps target rifle. The muzzle velocity on that load is about 1150. The deer had a 1 inch tunnel of destroyed meat all the way through its body and was dead right there.


Soft cast 31141 bullets in a .30-30 at 2000 fps will drop an elk in its tracks at 100 yards or so. a 105 grain flat point bullet with a .18 meplat from a .32-20 at 1600 fps is extremly destructive of porcupine and coyote tissue.
Bottom line, ferggedaboudit, cast, load and shoot what shoots well.

[DanWalker]

I've killed a handful of african animals and a boat load of deer, hogs, and a few antelope, with a 45LC and cast boolits. I am of the opinion that shot placement and alloy are the keys. I shoot 50/50 WW. I have hit deer and antelope with a 454424 and LEE 320's at 900 fps and seen them just crumple after a few seconds. I've punched 320's through hogs at 1200 fps and it just piled them up. The farthest any of the african game I shot went was 60 yards. It was a gemsbok shot with a 454424 at 1500 fps. The common thread in all of these kills was placement. I became disenchanted with the classic behind the shoulder shot VERY quickly after I started shooting critters with handguns. Now I bust shoulders. If possible, I try to break both. If the angle isn't right, I ALWAYS wait until I can at least break the offside shoulder. Regarding blood trails; I have found that shooting from above the animal (treestands) always produces a superior blood trail. You wind up with an exit hole low on the critter and the blood just drains out. With a horizontal shot, you have to wait for the blood in the body cavity to reach the heigth of the wound in order for it to start leaking out on the ground. A tough critter like an elk or antelope can cover a LOT of ground before that happens. That's my two cents. Take it for what it's worth...

[Bigslug]

Hmm. Quick thought experiment. How much deader is a deer or elk with a
.60 cal hole end to end than with a .45 cal hole end to end? My guess is it
will be pretty hard to measure.

Bill

Funny you should mention. I recently read a borrowed copy of Veral Smith's book. I disremember the exact figures, but he states that the common thread in many rapid kills is a pass-through wound channel between 0.5" and 1.5" in diameter. Less than 0.5", and the critter doesn't bleed out fast enough to drop in only a handful of yards. On wound channels larger than this, he has some interesting stuff to say - notably that they're often the result of high-velocity hydrostatic-type effects that can actually do damage on the cellular level, which - oddly - causes more rapid clotting (or possibly bruising and swelling) and slower blood loss than less "dramatic" impacts. Also, these rapid-expanders are less likely to generate an exit hole, making it harder for that blood to get out of the body.

At any rate, if you subscribe to 100% of this reasoning (and I buy far more of it than I doubt), it plays right into the concept of a heavy, relatively slow .45 with a wide meplat being among the most efficient game killers obtainable. It WILL make a wound channel of the appropriate diameter. It WILL exit almost anything short of a raking shot on a dilophosaurus. It will NOT deviate from your path of aim on light bones and gristle. True, the trajectory leaves a little to be desired, but what percent of our deer are killed farther than 150 yards anyway? There's A LOT to like here.

[44man]

Two good posts. I have found my .45 Colt kills faster then the hard 45-70 boolit but not when the 45-70 expands just right.
Veral is correct in that smashed tissue will seal fast. Clean cuts don't seal and is why an arrow kills so fast. I see it here all the time with the need to help find others deer for them. Most here use 7mm and .300 mags, why I don't know since a 30-30 is all needed. Seen a big buck stop bleeding in 100 yards, went a mile with a hole you could stick your head in.
Had a strange guy here once that did not field dress, took them home to hang first. His deer was with mine in the back of his truck and he swung the wrong deer into my truck and I heard "plop, plop" in the driveway. I said what was that. Found a heart that came out the hole in his deer and it was shot with a 30-30.
I gave up and sold my 280 because of bloodshot meat, even at over 220 yards. Last was on a dead run, 220 yards, in the open, pulled a good lead and found little sprays of blood from shrapnel on the snow. Bullet broke up. Lungs were destroyed but the bloodshot was just too much, took all day to clean meat.
I want that happy medium where I drop a deer right quick and butcher to the hole.
Right now it is the .475 from my BFR. 420 gr at 1329 fps. Water dropped WW boolits at around 20 to 22 BHN. No other gun I have has dropped so many deer on the spot. It works so well on deer but I would use it on any animal of any size. T Rex, look out!

[StrawHat]

I have said it before but the more I use the 50-70, the less I like the 45-70.

[TXGunNut]

The first game I killed with a boolit was with the RD 350, the most recent was also with that boolit. There have been a few in between and with the exception of the first one they simply dropped in their tracks, the first one was piled up a short distance away. I don't know if this bullet expands but I know it performs as well as I can ask for.

[Hannibal]

45-70 with hollow points: Because sometimes, dead just aint dead enough.

That's FUNNY right there, I don't care WHO you are !!!

[44man]

That's FUNNY right there, I don't care WHO you are !!!

Until you cut your own meat and don't dump it to someone else. The poor butcher does not like ruined meat either. Go buy meat, see any bloodshot? They don't shoot a cow with a .458, they shoot between the eyes with a .22 or special hammer. Many do not know how to skin or cut, just haul it to a butcher. Money talks, experience walks.

[Hannibal]

I find it interesting that by my expressing an appreciation for the humor in another member's post that you have concluded that #1- I do not hunt deer, #2 - I do not process my own deer, #3 - I do not have any experience processing any other animal, wild or domesticated.

Incorrect on all counts.

I believe the point being made in the quoted post was the apparent 'overkill' of using a hollow-point 300+ grain bullet fired from a 45-70 on a whitetail deer. Pun intended.

My personal choice is the lowely .243 with 90 grain PSPs. No, I don't lose deer. I practice proper shot placement. I DO, in fact process my own deer and work to avoid spoiled meat.

Enjoy your walk, and good day to you, 'Sir'.

[Larry Gibson]

Concur with 44man; "Don't believe the 1/2" hole stuff. My boolit would work better for a very large animal but deer are small. Need some expansion. Soft in the caliber has always worked".


With fredj338; " Depends on what you are hunting I guess. There is enough mass for good penetration, even with some serious expansion. For 250# & smaller game, I would prefer expansion."

And with goodsteel; "Because sometimes, dead just aint dead enough."

We've been through this topic with rifle and handgun bullets, cast and jacketed, numerous times before. It's not a matter of "killing". It's a matter of how fast the animal is killed in many instances of finding the game, not having someone else shoot the animal again and/or get to and tag the game a also from an ethical standpoint some of us have regarding killing the game as quickly as possible.

I always prefer softer alloyed cast bullets that expand and will use a HP if it is needed. I've killed enough deer and elk with expanding bullets and non expanding bullets to understand meat damage can be severe with both and non existent with both. I long ago learned shot placement was more important to lessening meat damage with both kinds of bullets than the difference between the expanding cast bullet and the Hard FN'd cast bullets. I prefer the expanding cast bullets because they do kill quicker with other than the brain or spine shot.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

I find it interesting that by my expressing an appreciation for the humor in another member's post that you have concluded that #1- I do not hunt deer, #2 - I do not process my own deer, #3 - I do not have any experience processing any other animal, wild or domesticated.

Incorrect on all counts.

I believe the point being made in the quoted post was the apparent 'overkill' of using a hollow-point 300+ grain bullet fired from a 45-70 on a whitetail deer. Pun intended.

My personal choice is the lowely .243 with 90 grain PSPs. No, I don't lose deer. I practice proper shot placement. I DO, in fact process my own deer and work to avoid spoiled meat.

Enjoy your walk, and good day to you, 'Sir'.

Nothing is personal and the .243 is a good caliber. Some of my best kills have been with the .6.5 Swede. There is still a difference between mangled meat and a quick kill without ruined meat when you choose right.
I find it great to see you do your own cutting and do see why you don't have to destroy a deer. To put deer down quick does not mean overkill. Yet, there is under kill. I once shot a nice doe with the 45-70 BFR, she stayed on her feet so I shot her again. She took off up a steep hill so i tracked her. It was getting darker and I heard a shot at the top of the hill. My neighbor dropped her with his rifle. He called to me since he knew it was me. How that deer went up that steep hill after shot twice baffles me. I tried to give the deer to my friend but he refused.
Larry makes a good point, it is still what your boolit does. Some of my calibers NEED expansion.
If you think a .50 hole is better then a .45 hole, I beg to differ.