.577 Snider paper patching

[medic302]

I have a 2 band snider MkIII short rifle that is in excellent condition. I've been competing in LRML for a few years now and I'm very familiar with pp bullets for muzzleloading rifles, I'd like to shoot pp with the snider as well. the bore slugs to .582/.589 at the muzzle and .582/.598 at the breech since it has progressive depth rifling. Can anyone reccomend an unpatched bullet dia? if I understand patching for cartridge rifles correctly the unpatched dia should be the same as the bore dia or in this case .582. correct?

[Outpost75]

Don't know about paper-patched, but my buddy in Italy simply cuts 24-ga. Fiocchi shotshell hulls to 2" and loads 14 grains of yellow Cheddite shotshell powder, similar to Unique, with card and fiber wad column to let him thumb a .600" roundball flush to case mouth like a wadcutter, then smear any soft grease or tallow over the ball. They shoot 20cm gong at 100 metres and have alot of fun.

[medic302]

Thanks I appreciate the advice but that's not what I'm looking to do, bullets and blackpowder for me. But again, thanks for the suggestion.

[Outpost75]

You can do the same with black, reducing the wadding.

[Stonecrusher]

I do most of my Snyder shooting with the Lyman 577213 minie unpatched. There are collar button molds that drop .590"-.600". I tried paper patching using some Pritchett bullets from an original mold. I sized to .568" and patched with two wraps of 100% rag content paper which brought them up to .600". I could see no increase in accuracy so I just use the bare minies.

[medic302]

okay thanks. since it doesn't seem to make any differance if the bullet is gg or pp, i'd like to stick with pp since i already do it any way. so it would seem that i should use a bore dia bullet and then patch up just like in a 45-90 then?

[Buckshot]

..........I have a Parker-Hale P-58 Naval Pattern 2 band 58 cal MLer. It has a 48" twist and also progreesive depth grooves. I tried paper patching for it too. I also have 2 Sniders. One a carbine (cut down rifle) and a 3 band. Both are MkII** models. Just to add to the above comment re: the 577 and RB's, I load the MagTech (CBC) 24ga brass hulls with 24.0 grs of Unique loose in the hull. Thumb in a .060" card wad, a 1/8" thick lube cookie, then seat and crimp a Lee .600" RB in place. Five rounds at 50 yards run a scant 2" or less. Velocity from the carbine is 1475 fps.



Five rounds @ 50 yards, Snider carbine .600" RB, 24.0 gr Unique = 1 5/8"

I also paper patch for a Whitworth MLer (.451"), a Rigby MLer (.451"), 577-450, 45-70, 45-90, 43 Spanish and 43 Mauser. That P-H P58 MLer is a superbly accurate rifle with Minie' bullets. Many years ago I had quite an e-mail conversation with a gent in Alabama who was also shooting a Whitworth, and had a couple repro 58 cal rifles. To cut to the chase, he had commissioned a mould to drop a smooth Minie' (like a Pritchett) of the correct size for him to patch up with the paper he had. After he had cast up a batch he sent me some, maybe 25 or so as I forget now. Naturally in loading from the muzzle the diameter over the patch has to fit the bore. IIRC the slugs he sent were like .568"? The bore of my Enfield is .580" and I used medium typing paper. I don't recall the thickness but it must have been like .003" or so.

In any event it was a very nice snug fit at the muzzle. I fired them all up while trying a couple different loads of both 2 and 3Fg Swiss (at that time like $14/lb in case lots). After each shot a damp, then dry patch was used in the barrel. The paper patch was lubed by hand before loading. I never could equal the accuracy I'd obtained with any other well fitting naked Minie'. The only thing I can figure that was causing the issue was probably the expansion of the skirt into the (comparatively) deep grooves at the breech. Both the Whitworth and Rigby muzzle loaders have no issues with accuracy whatsoever.

I sure don't want to dissuade anyone from trying to do it in the Snider, but if my guess was right then I might suspect the same issue of possible damage to the paper patch as the hollow base expands into those deep grooves. Maybe too there might be an issue with the leading edge of the patch as it encounters the rifling? More modern cartridges with paper patched bullets do not have problems, and they also have their slugs driven forward into the rifling. The only difference I can see is the rather generous dimensions of the Snider chamber. Regardless, it will be interesting to hear of the result!

.............Buckshot

[elk hunter]

My Mk III Snider shoots unpatched minies like a cylinder bore shotgun, i.e. a wide spread. It shoots patched ones like a skeet gun, in other words, just a little tighter than a cylinder bore. I'm just going to have to make a mould for it.

[curator]

I have been playing with the Lyman 20 gauge hollow base "Foster" slug in my Nepalese 3-band Snider with some success. It drops from the mould at .605 and weighs just under 350 grains when cast hot from reasonably pure lead. Since I have been thumb-seating them in cut down 24 gauge brass shells, I have been sizing them to .595 by pushing them through my lee .577 seating die. I have been using a 1/8" 20 gauge over-powder card wad between slug and powder. The ones that did not have the over-powder wad stick in the hollow base shot very accurately. I intend on trying LLA for lube and varying the powder charge and wad column to see if I can get more reliable accuracy. Recoil with 60 grains of FFg is as mild as when shooting a .600 round ball.

[zuke]

Try filling in the hollow base with lube, might prevent the card's from going in.

[curator]

Zuke,

Thanks, I had thought about doing that but had not tried it as of yet. The next batch I load will have the bases filled with my black powder lube. I was also considering a mixture of cream of wheat and lube as well as cream of wheat and a .45 caliber card wad to hold it in. (the hollow base is about .44 diameter)

[curator]

I tried the 595 Lyman slug with the base filled with lube today--not particularly promising. I could barely keep the bullets on a 24X24 cardboard at 50yards. I also tried the same slug with 2 wraps of #9 paper which bumped the diameter up to .603' with the paper tail packed into the hollow base. The load was the same; 70 grains of Old Eynsford 1.5Fg. While this was a bit better, it still does not match a 60 grain load and .600 round ball for accuracy.