Winchester-Lee Model 1895 6mm Navy Rifle

[varifleman]

Here for your viewing pleasure is Winchester-Lee Model 1895 6mm Navy Rifle serial number 18003 with bayonet and scabbard. It was part of the second US Navy contract (serial numbers 15001-20000) inspected by Lt John N. Jordan (J.N.J as stamped on breech in photo 7) which were delivered from 1 August through 6 December 1898.

[CHeatermk3]

Thanks for the pix--first ones I've ever seen!

[JeffinNZ]

Awesome!

[madsenshooter]

With metford rifling and a tight twist, that will be a tough one to get shooting cast well. Lyman made an experimental mold in the 50s, 245499, that ought to be just the ticket. The mold was supposed to be for the 243Win and 6mmRem, but didn't work out for them, not enough spin. Other than that, supershooter Bob S. has one he's working on, maybe PM him to see if he has any loads developed yet.

[roverboy]

Very nice. That's a rare bird there.

[John Allen]

I would love to see one of these in person. I have only seen them on the web and they really do look neat.

[nagantguy]

Where does he vet all those wonderful toys? Very very nice and rare poodle popper. Only seen one other at a naval base some hears back.

[varifleman]

With metford rifling and a tight twist, that will be a tough one to get shooting cast well. Lyman made an experimental mold in the 50s, 245499, that ought to be just the ticket. The mold was supposed to be for the 243Win and 6mmRem, but didn't work out for them, not enough spin. Other than that, supershooter Bob S. has one he's working on, maybe PM him to see if he has any loads developed yet.

Here are photos of a 20-round box of Remington-UMC 6mm ammo; headstamps; individual round and S&S repro clip and wire.

[varifleman]

Where does he vet all those wonderful toys? Very very nice and rare poodle popper. Only seen one other at a naval base some hears back.

Hi Nagantguy; I've always wanted one of these unique rifles since I like 1860s-WWI US and European military weapons. A few years agomI saw a post that said Norton Firearms was developing a repro Winchester-Lee 1895 Navy rifle but after numerous inqueries with no answer I assumed that project never seemed to get off the ground so I was lucky enough to get this original rifle!

[Mk42gunner]

Neat rifles, I remember seeing one in a gunshop in Ventura, CA about fifteen years ago. It was priced too high for me then, but I still think one would be fun to play with.

I don't know about using cast, I think I would try to find some of the 105 grain RN or semi spire points that Speer or Hornady used to make.

Robert

[303Guy]

Neat rifle! Lee straight pull. Awesome!

That rear sight is pretty decent. I'd be guessing it aims well.

I'm so sure that was supposed to be Metford rifling. Perhaps a bit worn. The Lee Navy was a smokeless round. I don't see an issue with getting it to shoot with cast.

[Multigunner]

Ran across a Lee Navy years ago at a reasonable price but passed because the fore end had been cut down at the lower band. Later I found out this alteration was done while the rifle was in service. When they ran low on replacement stocks rifles with warped fore ends had the wood cut back so they could use the rifle as a range rifle. The Canadians did the same with Ross rifles, the cut down fore ends improved accuracy quite a bit. Of course that rendered them unsuited as combat rifles since they could no longer carry a bayonet lug.

I'd like to see some reputable company build some repros of sporting models of the 1895 Lee rifles from modern alloys and chambered in modern calibers.

[Bent Ramrod]

I found I could use expanded .220 Swift brass in my Lee Navy Sporter. Of course, even the longest bullets seated way out don't get near the leade, but the accuracy isn't bad, and the semirims go through the magazine OK. Yours has a much better bore than most I've seen, including mine. Best I can do with Speer 105 gr roundnoses is about 4" at 100 yards. Barnes 115 grainers and the Sierra VLD's don't do notably better. I found a copy of the Ideal 244203 plain base which is OK for short range plinking.

Don't hot rod the loads. A friend of mine has a brazed up military Lee courtesy of a pal of his who was trying out some reloading experiments and went a little over the edge. There is a ".240 Cobra" which is also the Swift expanded to .243, but loaded to the max for Model 70 and Mauser actions. These are way too vigorous for the Straight Pull design.

Otherwise the only weak point is that semi-loose extractor, which relies on the slam of the rearward pulled bolt to start a sticky cartridge. Many have been broken and repaired. S&S Firearms has a few spare parts for Win Lees, including (IIRC) extractors.

The rifles are not uncommon, but original ammunition is hard to get and those little wire backed clips (if original) are ultra rare. Even the repros are out of my pay grade. Old Western Scrounger makes ammo with the proper neck length from rather heavily modified .30-40 brass.

[Ed Barrett]

I remember being in Philly about 30 years ago. There was the flagship of "the great white fleet" in the crews quarters there were 2 racks of pristine Lee Navies. Anyone from Philadelphia? I that ship/museum still there?

[Multigunner]

The rifles are not uncommon, but original ammunition is hard to get

Francis Bannerman bought all remaining 6mm Navy ball ammo still in storage in 1917 but found the powder was dangerously degraded and he destroyed the entire stockpile to avoid endangering his customers.

Seems to me the 6mm Navy was briefly revived for testing purposes in the 1960's when they were experimenting with light multipurpose squad autos of radical designs. Not sure where I read of this.

[Mk42gunner]

Cartridges of the World, 8th ed. mentions the 6mm SAW as a developmental cartridge in the 70's, but the dimensions are smaller than the 6mm Lee Navy. That's not saying that one of the designers hadn't known of the navy round, just that that particular round was not based on the same case.

If I ever come across an affordable rifle, I will lay in a stock of Swift brass to modify....

Robert

[Multigunner]

Cartridges of the World, 8th ed. mentions the 6mm SAW as a developmental cartridge in the 70's, but the dimensions are smaller than the 6mm Lee Navy.

Several cartridge cases were tried out during this program. The 6X45 case was the main one they settled on but they had an alternate6X50 aluminum case version, none were adopted.
The present 6X45 cartridge is not interchangeable with the 6X45 SAW cartridge, the SAW had a larger diameter base.
I think they chose a 6mm bore because of the known effectiveness of the USMC version of the COLT 1895 MG when chambered for the 6mm Lee Navy cartridge.
It provided the improved range and penetration they were looking for so they used it as a basis for development of the new cartridge.

I suspect the 6.5X50 Jap cartridge was also considered in this research.

[Multigunner]

To be clear I don't think they chambered any SAW weapons in 6mm Lee, though I'm not so sure of that, but I believe they did study the ballistic potential of this class of cartridge and its historical use in automatic weapons.
At least a few 6mm Colt MGs were used by the USMC in WW1 due to shortage of more modern MGs.
The 6mm Lee was in part designed for penetration of gunwales and boilers of small and medium sized craft. It would have been effective against body armor at long range and against thin skinned vehicles.
The 112 gr milspec loads weren't very impressive on paper but higher velocity experimental loads with bullets of 100 gr and 75 gr showed promise. The 75 gr loads are listed at 3,300 FPS. I would not suggest using those higher velocity loads in a Lee Navy rifle.

[Bent Ramrod]

Ed,

That was the "Olympia," ADM Dewey's flagship. I don't remember seeing the rifles, although I'm sure they were there somewhere. I remember the cramped quarters, with the hammocks slung between the gun breeches on the sides of the hull.

I asked the Docent taking us around the ship's spaces if he'd fire up the boilers and take us for a cruise around the harbor and he nearly had a heart attack. Something about Insurance Liability, or something. What ever happened to "Full Speed Ahead and Gosh-Darn The Torpedoes," anyway? Someone had a military Lee Navy at the Michigan Antique Arms Collectors' Show that had been salvaged from the Maine.

I've seen woodcuts of a ".236 Navy" which was a rimmed cartridge, looking something like an anorexic .30-40 Krag. I assume it went through the magazine as well as the rimless version although I doubt it would fit in the special clip. Never seen a real one, though.

I've had some lots of Speer 105 gr roundnose actually come apart in flight. The friction from the quick twist and (probably) the barrel roughness caused the lead core to actually melt and leave a gray streak along the bullet's path to the target. The hole in the target had a curly gray "comet tail" above or next to it.

The action is very quick to operate, but make sure that little tab on the side is back up and snapped into place. Otherwise, when you pull on the crank lever, the bolt, empty shell and extractor will fly right out the rear of the gun.

[varifleman]

Here are photos of the open bolt.