Hybrid 30 caliber PC Smooth Sided Bullet Mold

[HollowPoint]

I cast up a quick 60 more cylindrical slugs this morning. I wanted to try to adjust the output to give me finished bullets that weighed somewhere in the 160-168 grain range. I also wanted to try out the newly upgraded hollow pointing pin setup on my swaging die. It worked like a charm.

I'm now getting bullets of identical weights, lengths and profiles; with the hollow-point cavities just the right size and depth to allow the application of Powder in one spraying session.

Those horizontal hash-lines I scratched onto the inner surface of my slug mold gave me 10 grain differences from one line to the other so I tried setting my hollow-pointing-spud-pin in between lines to get me into the 160s. That also worked out great. I made 60, 166 grain formed bullets before powder coating. I'm hoping that the added Powder Coat will round me out to 168 grains.

The past few months I've been working up some 168 grain Hornady A-Max loads for my K-31 Schmidt-Ruben. It shoots the 168s pretty accurately so I wanted to try these Powder-Coated bullets with some of the same charge weights to see if I could get the same accuracy. I forgot to mention in my previous post that I had heat-treated those White Powder Coated bullets.

According to the Heat-Treating and BHN charts, they should be at around 27 BHN by the time I get out and shoot them.

I'll post some more pics of what I'm talking about a little later. Right now I've got grass/weeds to mow and errands to run.

Oh, by the way, Popper; Swaging these bullets takes a certain amount of pressure to fully form the Rebated-Boat-Tails. Even with shorter cast slugs, the same amount of pressure is required and it's this pressure that was causing the lead extrusion on the noses of my bullets; regardless of length. That problem has now been remedied.

I shall return.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

OK: I've been at it again.


I was able to Swage a new batch of 35 or so new lead bullets. I hope to have some free time early next week in order to Heat-Treat and Powder-Coat this latest batch.

I'm extremely happy to report that the weights and measurements of this new batch of bullets show really good uniformity. Out of this latest batch of Swaged bullets, only one of them was way off from the rest.

This one non-conforming bullet weight in at 165 grains, while all the rest averaged 166 grains. There was an average spread of .35 grains between all but that one bad bullet.

Upon close examination, that 165 grain bullets turned out to have a very small pin-hole in the wall of its nose section. That's the only reason I could come up with for it being so different than the others.

Things are looking good as far as the Swaging of these bullets goes. While I'm working on gathering the stuff for making my Revolving Powder-Coating Jig, I thought I'd throw together a simple jig that would allow me to manually spin my bullets as I spray my Powder on them.

This will be a painstakingly slow way of applying my Powder evenly but, it will keep me moving forward with this project.

If I don't keep moving forward, I'm afraid I'll loose interest in it and move on to something else.

Here's a few more pics, just to show you what I'm talking about.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

With the latest batch of swaged bullets I posted pics of in my previous reply, I put them in my oven for heat treating and stepped away to shut off the running water I had going in the kitchen sink. I only stepped away from the oven for a minute.

When I got back that entire batch of bullets lay on the tray looking like a bunch of miniature beached-whales or miniature Lead-Zepplins with the air let out of them. Two hours work totally rendered useless in less than three minutes.

I can't post the words that flowed from the mouth at that moment for fear of being banned from this site. I can tell you that many of those words started with a capital "F" and ended with capital "K."

On the up-side, with this latest, latest batch I've gotten some really uniform and concentric bullets. I heat treated those this morning and they turned out excellent. (450 degrees for one hour)

I loaded up that batch I made before the ones I recently melted into oblivion. Now it's just a matter of getting some free time to make it to the shooting range. I'm anxious to see if they'll fly true. This won't be a session where I'm shooting for group size. I just want to see how they function wearing Powder-Coat without Lube-Grooves, without gas-checks and with the Rebated-Boat-Tail design.

I've addressed the concentricity and voids-in-the-lead issue by swaging instead of casting. Shooting without Gas-Checks, I think I've addressed the issue of base deformation at higher pressures by Heat-Treating and using a Rebated-Boat-Tail design; and as far as the even application of Powder-Coat, I think I may have come up with a solution for this too.

I did find the worm-gears for making the Revolving-Powder-Coat-Jig I mentioned in my previous posts. They're pretty cheap so it's not like it will break the bank if I order them but, I was mulling over of the design of this jig when it occurred to me that I may be able to apply the Powder-Coat evenly without having to buy those gears or build that revolving jig.

I have a cordless rechargeable toothbrush that's completely sealed in plastic so as not to allow any moisture into the electrical or mechanical components. The charging pod is also completely wrapped in plastic for the same reason. I just set the toothbrush into it's holder on the charger and the current that recharges it flows right through the plastic so there's no conductive materials exposed to short out or electrocute the user.

With that in mind, I thought, "If I sit my plastic container of Powder on a piece of brass shim-stock, I can attach the electrical-lead from my ESPC gun to that shim-stock and then rig up a metal conductive rod that slips snugly into the hollow-point cavity of my bullets; to which I can clip the alligator clip of the ES-gun's transformer."

Of course, the metal rod that holds my bullet will have a non-conductive handle so as not to shock the hell out of myself but, I figure I might be able to just dip it into the powder the way one dips a honey dipper into a jar of honey, spin it a little and pull it out evenly covered with powder. (in theory)

I haven't tried it yet but, I have a light work day tomorrow so I'll give it a try. If it doesn't work I'll just order the worm-gears I mentioned so I can start work on the Revolving jig.

If it does work, coating one bullet at a time will be painfully slow but you have to remember, this project is just an experiment that I hope will lead me to the Holy Grail. That is, shooting my lead Powder-Coated bullets at full power with accuracy equal to or better than store bought jacketed bullets. That's not to much to ask; is it?

I have been taking more pictures. I just haven't had enough free time to prep them for posting. I'll get to it eventually though.

If you have a mind too, let me know what you think about this "Alternative Way" of applying the Powder Coat. I think there's a chance it will work. I'll find out tomorrow.

One of the reasons I've been using the white powder for this project is because the lighter color gives a clear indication of just how uneven the powder gets applied when spraying the bullets on one side, then turning them and doing the other side. With darker powders, this unevenness isn't quite so apparent.

Here's something else; many here are extolling the virtues of the more expensive and higher quality powders offered by those other than Harbor Freight. There's no arguing that better powders generally yield better results but, if I can get the cheap Harbor Freight powders to go on evenly, then when I do decide to upgrade powders there's a higher probability of a slam-dunk; in terms of results down range.

I'll be back to let those who are interested, know how this "Alternative" method of applying powder worked out.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

I gave it a shot and it worked, but not as I'd hoped. Although fairly evenly, the powder clung to the bullet in such a thick manner that there's no way I could have cooked them without huge runs in the paint or increasing the diameter to a whole different caliber.

So, I paid my six-dollars and ninety-eight cents for a set of worm gears. They're coming from Hong Kong so they won't be here till sometime around the 25th of this month. This means that if I get some free time between now and then I might get to go to the shooting range to try out that batch of Harbor Freight White-Boys I loaded up instead of spending my time working on the Revolving-Powder-Coat Jig.

I'll be back when the worm gears show up.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

Here's a few more pics of my successes and failures. I'm still waiting on the Worm-Gears I ordered. I did get impatient and Coat a few more of my Swaged bullets using slightly longer three-inch support pins on my rack. The slightly longer pins allowed my ESPC gun to spray up under the bullets much better to give a more even coat but, it still wasn't what I would consider, good enough.

[HollowPoint]

My worm-gears showed up today. The guy selling them must have used a macro-lense to photograph them for sale. They turned out to be little tiny gears that looked deceptively larger in his advertisements. (I bought them off of fleebay)

I think I can still make them work. I'll just have to see how much force it takes to spin them without shearing off any of the teeth in the gears.

I'll be back with an update once I've had time to tinker with them.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

OK:

I've gotten a little free time during the Thanksgiving holiday to play around with this project a little more. I wanted to update you on the small amount of progress I've made on the Rotating-Powder-Coating-Jig I'm working on.

Even though I screwed up my first attempt by drilling holes that didn't quite line up, my second attempt has lead me to believe that this Rotating-Jig will definitely work.

I just need to find a better set of worm-gears. These tiny gears I'm working with now work only as Proof-Of-Concept gears. I don't believe they'll hold up for more than a couple of go-rounds.

Ideally, this setup could be smoothed out with some small roller bearings and a small electrical motor but, since this is more of an experimental project rather than a production project, I'll stick with the cheap stuff for now.

Some of you guys reading this might have the correct stuff laying around in your own junk-drawers to put together a better Rotating-Jig. My junk-drawer is slowly running dry. Unless I come across some free junk worm-gears, I'm going to have to spend some money to get the right ones.

As is always the case when I take on a project of any kind, during the process of finishing it up, I'll inevitably figure out better ways of accomplishing the same thing.

If I get hold of the correct gears I'll start on my version-3 of this Rotating-Powder-Coating-Jig. In the mean time I'll work with what I got.

I'll be back.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

I finally got some free time today so I headed to the shooting range to try out that initial batch of 30 caliber Harbor Freight White-Boys.

I also took along some more 9mm and 45 ACP Harbor Freight Reds in addition to some old lead round-nose in both calibers that I've had on the shelf for about four years.

The pistol rounds shot like gang-busters. They were accurate and clean to shoot just like before. When I ran out of the Powder Coated pistol bullets I shot up the lead-round nose bullets and man what a mess they made of my pistol bores. I'd forgotten just how badly my barrels would lead shooting plain cast and lubed bullets; regardless of the sizing or alloy.

After the pistols ammo ran dry I switched to my two military surplus rifles. One was my Enfield No.4 MK1. I was shooting some of the Powder Coated bullets that I had Boat-Tailed by sticking the tail ends into an old-school pencil sharpener. I posted a picture of them not to long ago. They were made from the NOE 198 grain spitzer pointed gas checked bullet without the gas checks and Powder Coated in a grey color.

This NOE bullet has always shot very well in both my Enfield and my K31 Swiss. With my Enfield shooting these NOE Spitzer nosed heavies I was getting nice little round holes in my target at 50 yards using peep sights but the shots clustered into about three-inch groups.

I wasn't surprised by the grouping because my Enfield isn't known for accuracy. My main reason for shooting these bullets through it was to see if they would hit the target without key-holing. I was really surprised to see that the holes in my target were perfectly round because when I formed the Boat-Tails in the old pencil sharpener, I could see with the naked-eye that they weren't really all that concentric or uniform from one bullet to the other.

I shot the 30 caliber White-Boys out of my K31 at what I consider to be Full-Power. I shot a batch of 168 grain swaged bullets on top of 44.5 grains of Reloader 15 and LR magnum primers. The magnum primers were all I had at the time I loaded this batch. I mentioned in one of my previous posts that this same rifle shot the 168 grain A-Max bullets extremely well with this load receipt so I thought I'd try the same thing with these Swaged, Rebated-Boat-Tailed, Powder Coat bullets.

I also shot a batch of 172 grain White-Boys on top of the same 44.5 charge weight with standard LR primers.

I got to tell you guys, even though I only shot them to see if they would fly true with no key-holing on target, the accuracy of every one of these rounds was absolutely horrendous. Only two out of the combined batches of cartridges (total of 25) even hit the target or backstop. To get those two hits I had to ask one of the range-officers to spot me cause the recoil of the rifle would not allow me to see where the bullets were hitting.

The target backstops measure about 26 inches wide by maybe 36 inches tall. The bullets were impacting the dirt about two feet to the left of the backstop and low about 13 inches. When I made the adjustments the bullets would then impact in a completely different point in the dirt. The two hits that I did manage to get actually hit on the upper right hand corner of the backstop; they were touching one-another. It was like finding a little tiny diamond in a big pile of KaKa.

I did happen to have some old previously loaded lead ammo for my K31 in my range bag. In previous outings I've shot those with decent accuracy at a hundred yards but, they too shot wildly. Right now I don't know if it was my scope that had given up the ghost or if it was the White-Boy bullets that were just not flying worth a darn.

I'm going to try to get out to the range with one more batch of these White-Boys that have been meticulously Powder Coated as evenly as I can, and at plinking velocities in order to see if it was the velocity that did me in or the bullets themselves.

Because my point of aim was so far off from my point of impact my scope didn't have enough adjustment to bring me over to where my cross hair had to be. Worse case scenario is that my scope took a dump. I'll just have to wait and see.

By the way, I tried out my new Rotating Powder Coating Jig. As I'd suspected, it worked for only a short while before the teeth on the gears started to shear off. The problem was exacerbated by the plywood I had used. The wood had swollen up around the rotating cylinders causing friction which in turn, caused the gears to have to work overtime.

I'll be back after I've fired the next batch.

HollowPoint

[Dinny]

Rarely do I ever read two full pages of posts. This topic had my attention! Keep up the good work and stay interested. I think you're close.

Thanks, Dinny

[HollowPoint]

I've been to busy at work to be able to give any attention to this project recently. It probably won't be till after Christmas that I can make another concerted effort at making up a working Rotating-Powder-Coating Jig for applying my Powder Coat evenly.

I believe I've covered all the other issues that I felt needed addressing in the making up of concentric lead bullets for High Velocity accurate shooting.

I do have a little free time this weekend but, I'll be using that up with a coyote hunting trip. It's nice to have hobbies and projects but not so nice when they cut into your hunting and shooting time.

I haven't given up on this yet. I'll will be back.

HollowPoint

[popper]

I have two thoughts. First I think you need a harder alloy or HT to get any accuracy. I run 2400 fps 168 GC in my 308 and have to HT 3% Sb or accuracy goes to pot. I'm running a modified 145 PB smooth sided @ 1943 (chronyd the BO today), got about the same with the 150 in 308MX. I DT first, then ES the rear for a thicker coating (HF red). I don't think I am pushing the fps yet in either. I'm right at jacketed starting load per Hornady, probably 38Kcup.
Second, I think the boat tail you are doing is too long. Lots of lateral pressure on the base to make it go crooked, due to any irregularity in the boat tail. The boolit I have has a 45 deg. drive band angle and 0.02 GC shank - just to make a good clean base. I think it would really do fine with a complete 45 boat tail, just haven't tried it.
I think the swaged boolit idea is great, wish I had equipment to make them.

[HollowPoint]

I have two thoughts. First I think you need a harder alloy or HT to get any accuracy. I run 2400 fps 168 GC in my 308 and have to HT 3% Sb or accuracy goes to pot. I'm running a modified 145 PB smooth sided @ 1943 (chronyd the BO today), got about the same with the 150 in 308MX. I DT first, then ES the rear for a thicker coating (HF red). I don't think I am pushing the fps yet in either. I'm right at jacketed starting load per Hornady, probably 38Kcup.
Second, I think the boat tail you are doing is too long. Lots of lateral pressure on the base to make it go crooked, due to any irregularity in the boat tail. The boolit I have has a 45 deg. drive band angle and 0.02 GC shank - just to make a good clean base. I think it would really do fine with a complete 45 boat tail, just haven't tried it.
I think the swaged boolit idea is great, wish I had equipment to make them.

Hi Popper:

I mentioned a few posts ago that I was in fact heat treating my these bullets. The Boat-Tails are as close to perfect as I can possibly make them with the swaging process.

Changing the profile of the Boat-Tail itself is just a matter of making a new Boat-Tail-Forming pin.

I tend to believe that the reason for the dismal accuracy may have been caused by two or three things. It was either a krappy-scope or to much velocity on unevenly Powder-Coated bullets; or both.

On one of the pages in the swaging section of this forum, there's a list of reloading dies that can be used for swaging various bullet calibers. I mention this because if a guy was wanting to swage his own smooth-walled cast lead bullets, he might be able to use one or two of the dies on this list rather than trying to make or buy them.

I'm swaging air cooled lead slugs made from clip on wheel weights. I'll then harden them and final-size them after Powder-Coating. In addition; these bullets will sit as long as three weeks before I can even make it to the shooting range; which adds to the age-hardening process.

There's work-arounds for nearly every aspect of bullet casting and swaging. Using certain reloading dies you might already have on your shelves is one way to start swaging your own bullets.

HollowPoint

[HollowPoint]

I got a little bit of free time between jobs yesterday so I loaded up twenty of my Enfield 30-303 cartridges using some of the 168 grain Swaged, Hollow Pointed, Rebated-Boat-Tail Harbor Freight White-Boy bullets I had left from that last batch I made up.

I didn't have all that much free time so I was reloading as quickly as I could before my next job showed up. I wasn't paying attention to details during the session so when I went back that evening to clean up the newly loaded cartridges I noticed that not a single one of the twenty I loaded up had been seated concentrically in the case.

It looked as though the Powder Coated surface of my bullets was grabbing on one side or the other of my brass and being seated at a slight but distinct angle.

Usually, what it takes for me to determine the concentricity or runout of an individual cartridge is to roll it on a flat surface. I can see with the naked-eye if the bullet is seated concentrically or not but, with these reloads I didn't need to roll them I could see without to much trouble that they were all seated in the mouth of my brass at an angle.

I took them all apart and re-did them all from scratch using new Swaged bullets and fully re-sized brass. Now they're seated true so I'm hoping that by shooting them from my Peep-Sighted Enfield I can eliminate the possibility of my scope being responsible for the dismal accuracy I got before. They're also loaded with the standard plinking charge weight of 16 grains of 2400 rather than the full power loading I tried before.

It got me to thinking that the possibility exists that the full power rounds I loaded up for my K31 may have also been seated crookedly as well. I didn't really check them; I just assumed that they seated straight up and down with little or no runout like all my other K31 reloads.

I'm not sure when I'll be able to get back out to the range. I'm hoping it's before Christmas. I hate going out the weekend after Christmas. That's when all the newbie gun owners are out in force. It's a good time to get accidentally shot; even at the shooting range.

I'll make it a point to post some target pics regardless of how good or bad they turn out.

HollowPoint

[popper]

The Boat-Tails are as close to perfect as I can possibly make them with the swaging process.

I think the BT will slump (rivit) under high pressure, just like noses do. I tried a GC boolit sans GC in my 308. Did good up to a certain point, then you don't know where they go. My boolit has most of the shank removed & I can push them hard with accuracy. Some OP PC'd the Lee BT BO boolit (long BT) 3x, then sized. The BT almost went away and his accuracy went up. IMHO, the BT works with jacketed as the jacket prevents base deformation. Don't think PC is strong enough. Of course loading them crooked doesn't help, as you found out.

[retread]

I'm not sure when I'll be able to get back out to the range. I'm hoping it's before Christmas. I hate going out the weekend after Christmas. That's when all the newbie gun owners are out in force. It's a good time to get accidentally shot; even at the shooting range.

I usually go out right after they leave. A good source for once fired brass.

[HollowPoint]

I think my closest shooting range make a fair amount of money collecting the brass that hits the ground there. I've had some of the range officers look at me rather intently when I pick up my own brass. You know; like I was taking money out of their pockets.

With the price of brass and bullets being what it is, they're crazy if they think I'm going to let them have my brass.

My main concern about shooting around first time shooters is getting shot.

HollowPoint