Help with cartridge conversion

[DeputyDog25]

I know this is the reloading equipment page, but I hope someone can help me out here with a conversion problem. I am converting 30-30 to .225 Winchester. I have a very well known and respected book on the subject of Case Conversion. The procedure starts with annealing the brass, then running the brass through the .225 deprime/sizer die with the decapping rod removed. Well, this is all fine and dandy, but the problem is when you start to run the case in, the top of the case is not reduced in size and won't enter the neck size part of the die, so it just starts to crumple the neck the of the case. I did some research on the internet and I saw where some people run the brass through a .219 zipper die first to reduce the neck more subtly. Well, lo and behold this doesn't work either, same problem as with the .225 die, the top of the case doesn't fit through the die and it starts to crumple the case. Does anyone have any suggestions on reducing the diameter of the 30-30 top so it will fit in the .225 or .219 zipper die? Or is there another caliber of brass that could be converted to .225?

[Sensai]

7mm Waters? That would get you to the .280s and should at least get you into the neck of your sizer. I'm just guessing, though, I've never messed with either cartridge. There are too many available and outstanding 22 caliber cartridges for me to choose from. I do understand the desire to see what you can do though.

[john hayslip]

Annealing can be tricky. If you go too hot you get soft brass and a lot of what you describe can happen. Try without annealing. Lube the case body like normal and put a minimum amount on the shoulder and neck. Most of the time annealing isn't required. If the lube builds up in the shoulder area you'll get lube dents so your may have to clean the 225 die occasionally. Lube dents usually shoot out without problems on the first shot if the case is otherwise ok. Oh, do it without the decapping rod in.

[fguffey]

Well, this is all fine and dandy, but the problem is when you start to run the case in, the top of the case is not reduced in size and won't enter the neck size part of the die, so it just starts to crumple the neck the of the case.

I am a case former, I form cases. I use forming dies, I form first then size. I have almost finished sorting cases, loaded ammo and bullets given to me by a friend that is older than I am old. Between us the average age is 82, he also gave me his dies, press etc., and unfinished projects. When going through his boxes of ammo and fired cases I noticed he had sized 300 H&H to 300 Win Mag, all had folds in the shoulder, none were fired.

Forming, I have formed 8mm Remington Mab cases to 300 Win mag, 338 Winchester and 8mm 338 Wincester with two different forming dies meaning in the process I used two different forming dies, no folds or creases. I was visiting with a tech type at one of the manufacturers of dies, bullets and ammo, we were talking about forming cases. He started with "All you have to do is etc..". I interrupted him and ask him if he had ever formed a case as he described, he responded with "No".

My favorite forming dies are those that are short and large in diameter, If I had one forming die it would be the 308 W forming die, if I only had two the second would be the 243 W forming die. I have 16 forming dies.

When I start with a forming die I form 100 cases, for most forming dies the 100 cases will off set the expense, there are forming dies that are expensive, to justify the expense the new factory cases are also expensive. And trimming, when forming 100 cases there are times it is necessary to trim 24' of brass, trimming with a hack saw beats any trimmer.

F. Guffey

[fred2892]

It sounds like you may have over annealed the necks and made them a little too soft. Lube is very important and you won't do better than imperial sizing wax from Redding.
The slightest piece of crud or flaw in your .225 sizing die will also cause neck collapse. Well worth a degrease and polish of the internal surfaces. Slow and steady is the key to flawless conversions.
Don't give up, out of my first box of 25 brass 24 ga cases I only got 11 successful conversions to 577/450. Right now I could go out blindfolded and get 99 from 100 with ease.
Take some pictures of your failures, I promise you in the future you will look back at them and wonder why you were having so much trouble.
Good luck
Fred

[DeputyDog25]

Annealing can be tricky. If you go too hot you get soft brass and a lot of what you describe can happen. Try without annealing. Lube the case body like normal and put a minimum amount on the shoulder and neck. Most of the time annealing isn't required. If the lube builds up in the shoulder area you'll get lube dents so your may have to clean the 225 die occasionally. Lube dents usually shoot out without problems on the first shot if the case is otherwise ok. Oh, do it without the decapping rod in.

I have tried to do this with both annealed and non-annealed cases, the result is the same. The lube is used very sparingly and is always cleaned off the shoulder after every pull of the handle so lube dents are not an issue. I think I just need another intermediate die to reduce the top and neck of the case before going to the .225 Winchester die. I do this without the decapping rod in all the time, until I get the case formed completely and trimmed, then I run them through the full length sizer with the decapping rod back in to complete the case. This is the only caliber I convert which has given me problems.

[451whitworth]

you are on the right track with needing an intermediate step. 30 to 22 is way too much for one operation. My Zipper forming set brings 30/30 brass down in three stages to 22.

[1Shirt]

To go from 30 to 22, would suggest at least 3 steps in getting it down to where you want it. I would consider either a 7MM or a 270, then a 6.5( probably x55), then a 25, and maybe then a 24. Neck size only, and it is a slow process, and then you will probably have to trim the neck as it will more than likely be a bit to thick to function properly. Good luck!
1Shirt!

[Wayne Smith]

1Shirt got it right. Plan on starting with unannealed cases and annealing the necks at least once on the way down. Do it in gradual steps and you will have success.

[DeputyDog25]

I only use Imperial sizing wax, I haven't found anything better. I will try to use my 7mm neck die, then my 250 savage die, then go to the .225 die and see if that works. I have been annealing for quite awhile now, so I don't think I have overheated the brass, now when I first started annealing I would definitely cook some brass, but I pretty much have it down pat now. Thanks to all for you suggestions, I will let you know how it turns out.

[mazo kid]

Definitely use intermediate sizing. A while back I was forming 25 Remington brass from 30-30 and was getting lots of crumpled necks using just the 25 Rem. FL die. I went to using a 270 die first and then the 25 Rem. FL sizer die. That did the trick, no more failures!

[EDG]

There are several intermediate dies that could work.
Guffey is right. Think about short fat dies and I will add die butchery.

You can use a 7-30 Waters or 7-08 die to get some of the reduction. A 7mm BR die would also work.

Next would be a 6.5 Jap. or some cut off cheap 6.5 like a Herters die or a Lee die body ($12)
(I found a wildcat 6.5X250 Savage die at a gun show. I will never own a 6.5X250 but it is one of the most useful dies I own.)

Then a 25-35, 25 Rem or .250 Savage.
I have a .25 Rem form die and a .25 Rem trim die. Keep in mind that RCBS trim dies are about .010 larger than the same caliber FL die. These two dies will form a .30-30 case to .25 Rem (with a rim) easily.

.24 cal You need .243 and you might have to cut it off.
Or you could play with a 6mm PPC or 6mm BR.

I know it may seem expensive to spend money on some of these dies but once purchased they can be used to form many different cases. It is even better when you can find the dies second hand at a bargain price. This is a process that works best by habitually looking for dies that can form the intermediate steps.
Other handy dies
.358 Win
.357 Automag - FL or Trim die
8mm Kurz
Any kind of BR 30, 7mm, 6.5, 6mm
7.62x39

Hornady makes universal neck sizers. The dies do not have a close fit chamber. They are one size fits all except they may have a long and a short version in some calibers. These dies can be used if the shoulder is not too sharp.

If they are of the right design with no crimp shoulder and are well polished many seaters can also form brass.
I have maybe 2 dozen dies that I have purchased for forming and have a wish list for about that many more.

Here are part of the dies that I have measured for possible forming use.

			NECK
Cartridge	Brand	TYPE	DIAMETER
.50-70	RCBS	TRIM	.5330
.50-70	RCBS	FL	.5230
.45-70	RCBS	TRIM	.4780
.45-70	LEE	FL	.4735
.45-70	RCBS	FL	.4680
.45-70	Redding	Neck	.4680
.45-70	RCBS	FL	.4670
.45-70	Redding	FL	.4650
.43 Spanish	CH	TRIM	.4530
8X57	RCBS	TRIM
.44 Mag same die 1966	RCBS	TRIM	.4540
.41 Mag Q	RCBS	TRIM	.4350
Need A .40-65 Form die			.4370
.40-65 Win	RCBS	TRIM	.4310
.40-65 Win	RCBS CBY	FL	new single
.40-65 Win	RCBS CBY	FL	.4210
.40-65 Win cut off	RCBS CBY	FL	.4210
.40-65 Win	RCBS CBY	SEATER	.4130
.40-65 Win	RCBS CBY	SEATER	.4120
.40-65 Win	Redding	FL	.4165
.40-65 Win	Redding	FL	.4160
.40-65 Win	Redding	SEATER	.4100
.40-65 Win	Redding	SEATER	.4100
.40-65 Win	RCBS	Seater	.4080
.40-65 Win set 1	Lyman	FL	.4210
.40-65 Win set 2 Houston GS	Lyman	FL	.4210
.40-65 Win	Lyman	Seater	.4120
.40-65 Win 1965 (.406 bullet)	RCBS	FL	.4175
.40-65 Win	Redding	Trim	.4160
.375 Win	RCBS	FL
.375 Win	RCBS	FL
.375 - .38-55	LEE	FL
.38-55	RCBS	FL
.33 Win Form #1	RCBS	Form #1	.4060
.33 Win Form #2	RCBS	Form #2	.3720
.250 Savage #1 Form	RCBS	Form #1	.4070
.357 Auto Mag	RCBS	TRIM	.3850
.35 Rem	RCBS	TRIM	.3810
9X56 Mannlicher sold	RCBS	TRIM	.3780
9X57 Mauser	Pacific	FL	.3775
.358 Win	PACIFIC	FL	.3760
.358 Win	RCBS	FL	.3740
.35 Rem Dull	CH	FL	.3710
.35 Rem Bright	CH	FL	.3710
.35 Rem	RCBS	NECK	.3690
.35 Rem	RCBS	FL	.3690
7.92 Kurz	Redding	TRIM	.3580
8X57	PACIFIC	SEATER	.3580
8X57	RCBS	TRIM	.3500
7.65 Mauser	Lyman	Seater	.3510
8X57	RCBS	TRIM	.3500
.308 Win	BAIR	SEATER	.3480
7.62X54R Russian	RCBS	SEATER	.3470
8X57	RCBS	FL	.3430
8X57	LEE	FL	.3410
8X57	PACIFIC	FL	.3400
8X57	RCBS	FL	.3370
	RCBS	TRIM	.3400
7.65 Mauser	RCBS	TRIM	.3390
.308 SOLD	RCBS	TRIM	.3380
.300 Sav SOLD	RCBS	TRIM	.3370
7.65 Mauser	CH	TRIM	.3360
7.65 Mauser	Lyman	FL	.3328
7.65 Mauser	RCBS	FL	.3290
.303 British	Herter	FL	.3280
7.35 Carcano	RCBS	SEATER	.3340
7.35 Carcano	Pacific	SEATER	.3290
.303 British	RCBS	FL	.3280
	BAIR	FL	.3280
.303 British	RCBS	Neck	.3270
	RCBS	Neck	.3270
7.62X54R Russian	CH	FL	.3220
7x57	CH	FORM	.3230
.250 Savage #2 Form	RCBS	Form #2	.3200
7MM/08	RCBS	Seater	.3180
7.35 Carcano	PACIFIC	Seater	(0.329)
7.35 Carcano	RCBS	FL	.3170
7.35 Carcano	PACIFIC	FL	.3150
7.62 X 39	CH	FL	.3150
7X57	RCBS	TRIM	.3150
7X57	RCBS	FL	.3060
7MM/08	RCBS	FL	.3040
7X57	FORSTER	FL	.3040
7mm Rem Mag	Micro – Prec	FL	.3030
6.5X53R Dutch Mannlicher	CH	SEATER	.3020
6.5x52 Carcano	PACIFIC	TRIM	.3000
7X57	HERTER	FL	.2990
6.5x53R Dutch Mannlicher	RCBS	TRIM	.2950
6.5 JAP	PACIFIC	TRIM	.2910
6.5x53R Dutch Mannlicher	RCBS	TRIM	.2900
.257 Roberts (Duplicate entry)	Pacific	TRIM	.2900
.250 Savage (in forming set)	RCBS	TRIM	.2895
.250 Savage	RCBS	TRIM	.2860
6.5X55	RCBS	FL	.2860
6.5x52 Carcano	RCBS	FL	.2845
6.5x52 Carcano	RCBS	FL	.2850
6.5X55	RCBS	FL	.2850
6.5x53R Dutch Mannlicher	RCBS	FL	.2845
6.5x53R Dutch Mannlicher	CH/4D	FL	.2830
6.5x52 Carcano	LEE	FL	.2840
.250 Savage Reamer die in set	RCBS	Reamer	.2840
6.5 X 250 SAV.	RCBS	FL	.2840
6.5X55	LEE	FL	.2840
6.5 Jap	FORSTER	NECK	.2830
6.5 Jap	LEE	FL	.2830
6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer	RCBS	FL	.2835
6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer	FORSTER	FL	.2835
6.5 Jap	Krupp	FL	.2820
.257 Roberts	PACIFIC	TRIM	.2900
25-06 Rem.	RCBS	FL
25-06 Rem.	RCBS	NECK
.257 Roberts	RCBS	FL	.2780
.256 Win Mag	PACIFIC	FL	.2740
.256 Win Mag	Redding	FL	.2750
.250 Savage	PACIFIC	FL	.2740
.25 Rem	PACIFIC	FL	.2710

[Reverend Al]

I have to agree with much of what has been mentioned above. I've re-formed .30-30 Winchester cases into both .25-35 WCF and .22 Savage High Power and it usually takes annealing (once fired brass) and then progressive steps such as through a set of 7x30 Waters and then down to .25-35 WCF and then down once again to .22 Savage HP. Another system that has worked well for me is to fire-form the .30-30 cases in one of my several .32-40 WCF's first, which eliminates the shoulder issues and gives me a nice tapered case which I find much easier to size down to the smaller .25-35 WCF or .22 HP. No "wrinkled" shoulders that way. I'm also a huge fan of the Imperial sizing wax and have used it for years. Just my 2 cents worth ...