How fast can they be pushed without GC

[Pablo 5959]

All,
I was just wandering if anyone has done any shade tree testing on plain base PC?
Is there a known advantage with PC over lube when max velocities are being reached?
I haven't really seen this being discussed in length yet. (If it has, please share a link).
Pablo

[GhostHawk]

Pablo from the reading I've done, PC for Pistols is pretty much a good thing. No leading, smoke, or problems. Accuracy is good enough.

When you switch however to rifles, higher velocity, and PC, I have yet to see anyone post proof positive that even consistent 2 MOA is achievable. It is a much tougher game, with smaller bullets, tighter tolerances, higher speeds and longer distances.

Which is not to say that someone won't figure it out, or come up with a method of doing so. I am just saying I have not seen it posted here, yet.

[Artful]

Pablo 5959

have you seen this thread?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...fps-or-greater

[crowbuster]

I can only say that i have shot hot, very hot loads, over max load in 44 mag. Not for groups, just to recover boolits. And the pc is'nt even burned on the bottom. Not really what you asked, but thought I would share

[ebner glocken]

At the moment I am working with the ported dan wesson .44 mag with decent results. I haven't messed with the chrono yet but 20.0 grains of ww296 behind a lee 310 works well with a g/c but not so much so w/o one. Using standard roll crimp there's no bullet jump (this has been a huge problem in the .454). There will be a video coming as soon as I can get to it with results in the .44 mag. Watch for it on my youtube channel under "ebnerglocken". But as of right now I'm saying that a gas check is beneficial when using a gas check design bullet. So far results have been promising but more testing needed before results are published.

Ebner

[Pablo 5959]

Pablo 5959

have you seen this thread?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...fps-or-greater

Well that tread was quite a mouth full.
unless I missed it because I admit I didn't read all of that tread because I'm only concerned about the mag handgun loads.
But I'm guessing I won't need GC's even with full house loads

[el34]

Pablo I load my 357mag with the Lee 158SWC (non-GC design) pc'd with gloss black using my favorite jacketed load of 15.2gr of 2400. Alliant says-
158 gr Speer GDHP 2400 CCI 500 Speer 1.575" 14.8gr 1265fps

I don't have a chrono so I can't report velocity, just that I'm shooting full tilt PC'd cast boolits. I get the same accuracy as shooting factory, no doubt I'm the biggest variable affecting that accuracy!

[Garyshome]

Too many J words to cast for the rifles. I may run out soon though.

[oldpapps]

In my tests, I have yet to find a 'max' loading with a powder coated bullet.
Well, that's my fault. I don't push anything all that hard.

Here is some of what I have found:
Cartridge - .44 mag, 240 grain Keith type SWC, 2400 powder, standard LP primers
Un-coated (greases) standard loading - 1250 FPS (I have used this or a variation of this loading for many years and adjust to not get any leading, differing boolet lead and weights have given velocities from 1243 to 1291 FPS but most run around 1250 FPS.)
Same loading and boolet as above but coated - 1096 FPS. My thought is that 2400 likes a firm boolet hold to build pressures and with the same medium crimp, the polyester coated boolets just are slick. Accuracy was as good as the lead/greased loading. But, I see no advantage for me to powder coat these boolets what with the velocity loss. Could I up the charge to make up for the lost velocity, most likely but why?

Moving on to 308 diameters, well .311 inches. I had a LEE C312-155-2R mold shaved to remove the gas check and just a little of the drive band with the results of a flat base boolet weighting in (with my alloy) at 130 grain. I have never grease any of these to a comparison test. What do I get:

300 AAC Blackout - my preferred loading produces 2124.4 FPS. At 50 yards this is very accurate. The weapon has full function, stripping next round and lock back on last round. (As soon as I can get the brush hog on the far side of the creek, I will mow the lane to my 100 yard target stand. Till then, the chiggers and ticks will just have to starve

.308/7.62 and 30-06 - Remember my belief that the polyester is too slick? My loading for this type of round will not function in my M1A or M1 Garand. What? They try but recoil literally pulls the boolets from the rounds in the magazine or en-block clip I am working on this problem. No, crimping doesn't work.
However, when fed one at a time or from the weapon's magazine that doesn't allow the bullets to move forward the loading do great.

1903A3 - 130 grain little cut 30s with powder coating, over 748 powder and a standard LR primer give a MV of 2715 FPS! No leading or any fowling! I have not single loaded a Garand for testing.

M1A - Same everything as above only in the shorter .308 case, produced 2877 FPS but this produced a loose grouping. Cutting back the loading to a velocity of 2735 FPS tightened the grouping up a lot. This too was at only 50 yards. A great deal of testing (fun) will need to be accomplished.

None of the above loading produced; any leading, any fowling, and pressure indications. Yet, do move at good velocities. I know, the 'j' types in 130 grains do move a bit faster. But I don't cast them

Load with care,

OSOK

[HollowPoint]

In my tests, I have yet to find a 'max' loading with a powder coated bullet.
Well, that's my fault. I don't push anything all that hard.

Here is some of what I have found:
Cartridge - .44 mag, 240 grain Keith type SWC, 2400 powder, standard LP primers
Un-coated (greases) standard loading - 1250 FPS (I have used this or a variation of this loading for many years and adjust to not get any leading, differing boolet lead and weights have given velocities from 1243 to 1291 FPS but most run around 1250 FPS.)
Same loading and boolet as above but coated - 1096 FPS. My thought is that 2400 likes a firm boolet hold to build pressures and with the same medium crimp, the polyester coated boolets just are slick. Accuracy was as good as the lead/greased loading. But, I see no advantage for me to powder coat these boolets what with the velocity loss. Could I up the charge to make up for the lost velocity, most likely but why?

Moving on to 308 diameters, well .311 inches. I had a LEE C312-155-2R mold shaved to remove the gas check and just a little of the drive band with the results of a flat base boolet weighting in (with my alloy) at 130 grain. I have never grease any of these to a comparison test. What do I get:

300 AAC Blackout - my preferred loading produces 2124.4 FPS. At 50 yards this is very accurate. The weapon has full function, stripping next round and lock back on last round. (As soon as I can get the brush hog on the far side of the creek, I will mow the lane to my 100 yard target stand. Till then, the chiggers and ticks will just have to starve

.308/7.62 and 30-06 - Remember my belief that the polyester is too slick? My loading for this type of round will not function in my M1A or M1 Garand. What? They try but recoil literally pulls the boolets from the rounds in the magazine or en-block clip I am working on this problem. No, crimping doesn't work.
However, when fed one at a time or from the weapon's magazine that doesn't allow the bullets to move forward the loading do great.

1903A3 - 130 grain little cut 30s with powder coating, over 748 powder and a standard LR primer give a MV of 2715 FPS! No leading or any fowling! I have not single loaded a Garand for testing.

M1A - Same everything as above only in the shorter .308 case, produced 2877 FPS but this produced a loose grouping. Cutting back the loading to a velocity of 2735 FPS tightened the grouping up a lot. This too was at only 50 yards. A great deal of testing (fun) will need to be accomplished.

None of the above loading produced; any leading, any fowling, and pressure indications. Yet, do move at good velocities. I know, the 'j' types in 130 grains do move a bit faster. But I don't cast them

Load with care,

OSOK

I'm wondering if just the opposite is happening? Instead of the PC causing velocity loss via the lubricity (slickness) that has been mentioned here, might not the fact that our bullets are sized to the generally accepted one or two thousands over bore diameter be the culprit in slowing down the bullets.

The Lee cast bullet charts list the pressures at which obturation occurs for a given BHN. If a guy is attempting to achieve velocities that match maximum (or there abouts) jacketed velocities and your cast bullets are sized over-bore by one or two thousands, at these higher pressures the obturation that occurs may act similar to disk-brakes on a brake-drum; except in this case the obturation causes the lead bullet to expand outward against the walls of the bore inducing a braking effect.

Have you tired sizing down to 308" after powder coating, and then shooting full power loads? With full power charge weights, the obturation that occurs should bump the diameter of our bullets up to the one or two thousands we bullet casters typically size our bullets to.

If our bullets are sized up to two-thousands larger than bore diameter and obturation bumps it up from there, in my minds-eye, I see it as being like shooting a 303 caliber bullet through a 30 caliber barrel; of course it going to slow down our bullets. And with this amount of additional friction, the high lubricity of the PC may be being turned against us as the friction creates a sticky past rather than a slick synthetic surface that rides down the bore.

Just a thought.

HollowPoint

[DeanWinchester]

I seriously doubt you will ever find the point at which powder coating fails with a handgun cartridge.
I have fired a 100g plain base over a case full of Varget in a 30/30 Contender with zero fouling. Accuracy sucked but I was looking for leading, not accuracy. Wish I'd had a chronograph. I imagine they were scootin'!!!!

[oldpapps]

"I'm wondering if just the opposite is happening? Instead of the PC causing velocity loss via the lubricity (slickness) that has been mentioned here, might not the fact that our bullets are sized to the generally accepted one or two thousands over bore diameter be the culprit in slowing down the bullets.

The Lee cast bullet charts list the pressures at which obturation occurs for a given BHN. If a guy is attempting to achieve velocities that match maximum (or there abouts) jacketed velocities and your cast bullets are sized over-bore by one or two thousands, at these higher pressures the obturation that occurs may act similar to disk-brakes on a brake-drum; except in this case the obturation causes the lead bullet to expand outward against the walls of the bore inducing a braking effect.

Have you tired sizing down to 308" after powder coating, and then shooting full power loads? With full power charge weights, the obturation that occurs should bump the diameter of our bullets up to the one or two thousands we bullet casters typically size our bullets to."

The loads that 'run' slower with the same powder loading are the .44 Mags using 2400 powder. These are sized with my old Lyman 450 and the same dies I have always used, .430 inch. So, they are no different in size, lead or lead coated. I have in the past tested the same loading, boolet and powder, with 'NO' crimp, (judgmental) 'MEDIUM' crimp and what I call a 'HARD' crimp. These are not statically valid numbers as a minimum sampling did not exceed 15.
'NO' crimp - 1247.7 FPS
'MEDIUM' crimp - 1291.1 FPS - this number is very valid.
'HARD' crimp - 1242.6 FPS

I could 'stand' on a loaded round and push the boolets deeper into a case with both the 'NO' crimp and 'HARD' crimp but the 'MEDIUM' crimp was solid. These were normal lubed lead, not powder coated. When I do the same with powder coated loads, they will ease into the case. No, it wasn't easy to push them in but did prove to me that the 'MEDIUM' crimp is stronger.

Now to the .308 boolets. I began using a .309 sizing DIE in my Lyman 450 and would still be using it except to use it requires me to clean all lube out of it and I use it quite often with other sized boolets. Much easier to just buy a LEE Push Through sizing DIE and I bought the size that is most recommended for 300 Black Out, .310 to .312.

Eventually, maybe, I will run some test using a very fast powder that is not known to need or want a hard boolet pull to generate the pressures needed to acheave the desired velocities. Until then, I will stick with my beliefs and state that they are only what I think.

I don't like to 'push' pressures and I have yet to see any pressure indications with coated bullets. I know that 'reading' a primer is half guess work and half smoke and mirrors but CCI primers, 400s for the BlackOuts, 200s for the .308/06s and 300s for the 44s, all have rounded edges. This looks to me like low pressures, but what do I know. If these pressures are low, they could be pushed up and just what kind of velocities could result with these slick bullets? I am coming to the opinion that faster powders will work a little better with coated/slick bullets. But, again, this has not been tested, yet.

Keep up giving me things to work out. It helps.

Mean while, I am weighting for the storm/s to role in.

Load with care,

OSOK

[Pablo 5959]

Thanks guys, this answers pretty much all questions I had.
( and some I didn't LoL).
Carry on and keep up the good work.
Pablo

[Garyshome]

I am going to try as soon as i get the time to work with rifle ammo.

[StromBusa]

In my tests, I have yet to find a 'max' loading with a powder coated bullet.
300 AAC Blackout - my preferred loading produces 2124.4 FPS. At 50 yards this is very accurate. The weapon has full function, stripping next round and lock back on last round. (As soon as I can get the brush hog on the far side of the creek, I will mow the lane to my 100 yard target stand. Till then, the chiggers and ticks will just have to starve

OSOK

Sounds like a light bullet? Any more details you'd like to share?

[oldpapps]

Sounds like a light bullet? Any more details you'd like to share?

The loading listed is:

Lee C312-155-2R mold, shaved to remove the gas check and just a little of the lower drive band. With my alloy, (harder as it was made up for lead/lube use in my 44 mags - don't have a hardness gauge) these little sliver come in at 130 grains. I powder coat with PBTP Clear and size with a LEE push through to .311 inches (I size both before and after powder coating - I don't think it is needed but I am a creature of habit and that is one of my habits.)

I load these same boolets in the .300 AAC Blackout (the questioned loading), .308/7.62 and 30-06.

Using recycled LC brass that I processed, with CCI 400 primers and Lt'Gun powder (amount is not provided, not that the loading is hot, just don't want to get in hot water with anyone). Out of a 16 inch barrel with a carbine gas system, I have loaded to a high of 2236.5 FPS (@ 10 feet). However, I get, with my weapon, better accuracy with the loading that runs 2124.4444 FPS, COAL- 2.03 inch. This is a running average velocity with well over 50 samples. I don't mix velocity checks with accuracy tests and my chronograph is doing very well, thank you.

My shooting range is across my front yard, from the drive into the woods. The edge of the yard is where a wet weather creek flows and another 35 or so yards of the total 100 yards is on the far side of the creek. I have a small bridge up creek that I can cross over by foot or 4-wheeler. But my tractor is too heavy for the little bridge and I have to ford the creek.... We have been having lots of rain and I'm not about to get the tractor stuck in a fast flowing creek just to brush hog my firing lane. The corn is all but ready and beans not far behind. So, after they are harvested, I could get to the other side by way of the fields. What all of this breaks down to is, the best range testing I can do, for now is 50 yards. A great grouping at 20, 25 or 50 yards can go to **** at 100 yards. As I kill lots of paper, tightness of the grouping is my goal. Hogs are moving my way, the stupid armadillos are here and they are followed by hogs. I view this as both good and bad, mostly bad, torn up ground and lost crops but pork

I hope this answered your question/s. If not, ask more and I will provide what I can.

Enjoy,

OSOK

[Sur-shot]

Pablo,
I do not get by this forum very often but have been a caster since 65. Right now I am working on a new wildcat cartridge, the 358 MGP, that started as a try at producing a rimless 357 Herrett in an AR-15, that has turned into a 358 Winchester in an AR-15. Long story short, I got tired of paying $40 a hundred for fireforming bullets so decided to try PC bullets, first try with GC 200 RCBS was a failure, bubbles popped out from the GC, then went to 180 RCBS same story plus the first band is a bearing surface, would not chamber right. Then stuck way back in my bullet cabinet was an old cardboard box of plain base 200 RCBS bullets I had bought years ago. So I removed the lube with a soak in mineral spirits, washed them in acetone and proceeded to PC them. Ran them through a 358 Lee push die. Opened the case mouth with an old 357 Mag expander die. Set them on top of 34gr of AA-1680 (load does 2,320 with 200 Rem RN) started shooting them (see L picture). It took about 30 rounds (see mid picture) to finally see the bullets were going into one hole. So I took the last three and shot the .5 inch group (see R picture). The PC bullets were running 2,410 fps and left no lead at all, one patch and the bore was mirror shiny.

The two pictures were taken at the same time of the two targets on the same back board@ 100.
Ed

[xacex]

Nice to see some groups with PC boolits in the 358 MPG. I have been watching that cartridge for the last year, and I am liking what I see. I have never been a fan of the 6.8, but I would buy some brass to try this out.

[Yodogsandman]

Very impressive! What are you doing different from the rest of us?

[popper]

Good shots. I've only gotten close to 1900 so far in my testing. 358MPG? Looks like my 300BO loaded. 223 case? I assume hardball alloy in the RCBS boolits? You have to watch for moisture or solvent on the shank, cooking will pop the checks off or at least make them crooked. Many add the GC after PCing.