Reactive filler

[Nobade]

I wanted to call it filler with attitude, but I think I like reactive filler better. Anyhow, today was the first outing of my new 30 Badger rifle. Originally a Ruger #1 22 Hornet, I had it rebored and rifled at 1:14 by Delta Gun Shop. I tried a variety of loads, all the the NOE NRA bullet I have been talking about recently. In a couple of loads I wanted to try fillers with Lil' Gun powder since a case full of this powder is too much. The first was 8.0gr. Lil' Gun and .3cc Cream 'o' Wheat. That shot pretty poorly, and in fact was the least accurate load of the day at about 2 MOA. Just on a whim I tried substituting WC860 for the COW. Same volume, bullet seated hard on the powder charge, and this load was the most accurate for the day! 10 rounds in 5/8 MOA with 6 cutting the same hole. That sure made a difference! I am going to load up a bunch more of these to try and get some chronograph readings, but they were hitting to the same point at 200M as the 9.5gr. Lil' Gun loads, so I assume they're about as fast.

BTW, if anyone is contemplating a 30 Badger rifle, do it! This thing is one of the most fun rifles I own now. Very little recoil, cheap to shoot, and extremely accurate at least to 200M. I think it is going to get a lot of attention in the coming time, I need to find good loads for naked boolits as well as lighter weight PP ones. Neat little trick, and we can all thank Badgeredd here on this forum!

-Nobade

[texaswoodworker]

Your mixing powders? I'd be extremely careful about doing that. It can be extremely dangerous.

[303Guy]

Nobade knows what he is doing and that mix he's using will be perfectly safe (and effective if I may say). I think it is a great idea!

[BruceB]

Nobade is NOT "mixing powders". He noted that the bullet was "seated hard" on the powder; that will positively prevent the mixing of the powders.

I once created some .338 loads, using BLACKPOWDER as a filler. This is the opposite approach to that taken by Nobade, since in my case the filler was very easy to ignite, but also very low-energy in the quantity used. My bullets were also seated firmly on the charge to prevent mixing.

At this late date I don't recall my exact reasoning, but it did work , did not create problems, and all the blackpowder fouling was blown clear of the rifle by the smokeless powder burning behind it.

[Nobade]

Yep - this is backwards from normal. Usually the kicker charge is small and powerful, and the main charge is large and slow burning. In this particular cartridge, it almost but not quite uses a case full of fast burning powder. But I wanted the location of the bullet to be fixed by the powder charge, since the patch needed to be jammed hard into the throat. So the small charge of slow powder on top just to fill the case all the way. It worked quite well as filler, as well as adding a slight bit more energy to the load.

-Nobade

[CJR]

Nobade,

Super job! It's a great day any time you get subMOA with PPCB.

Best regards,

CJR

[303Guy]

Super job! It's a great day any time you get subMOA with PPCB.

Indeed!

The concept of filling the remaining case volume with a slow powder seems logical to me. I had thought about it.

I have played with mixed powders. First I kept them separate then I premixed them. I did change the ratios during my testing. I did not have a chronograph then but I did measure penetration and impact effect. Accuracy was good and terminal effects on critters was devastating (to the critters). The two powders were H4227 and Varget and the cartridge was a 22 hornet with 50gr bullets. Then I discovered Lil'Gun which outperformed the mix and I never looked back. Lil'Gun is its own filler and works better when highly compressed (which seems to lower pressure) in a small capacity case.

[Old Coot]

Nobade;
I may be dense, but what is the parent case of your 30 Badger. From your post I assume ( and you know what that means) that it is the 22 hornet, but I can not find any confirmation on the internet. Please let me know. Thank You
Brodie

[Janoosh]

I believe the 30 badger is based on the 38 special case and a 762×25 sizing die. I hope I'm correct as I'm very interested. I have a martini this cartridge should work in.

[303Guy]

What is that we always say? Oh yes, pictures. We need pictures!

What is this 30 Badger?

[Nobade]

I don't have any pictures of it myself, thought I had posted some but evidently not. Here is a thread about it where a guy used one to shoot a deer, and there is a picture of the cartridge a little way down on the first page.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-20-ballistics

It is indeed a 38spl. case run through a 7.62x25 Tokerev die and trimmed slightly. Badgeredd here on this forum drew up the reamer, and Dave Manson made it. I got one from him just like Edd's original design and it works wonderfully. Capacity is between a 32-20 and a 30 carbine.

-Nobade

[Ballistics in Scotland]

What you are doing sounds safe, and putting a small amount of fast smokeless powder behind a case of black is well documented as safe and promoting cleaner burning. But in the case of smokeless at least, it is very important that it should be a 100% or very slightly compressed load. These wouldn't be mixed loads unless you deliberately (and for some unknown reason) mixed each load before pouring into the case. Load from a measure hopper of mixed powder? No, nobody would... would they? Maybe on some other website.

If you fill a given space with cylindrical or spherical grains, you can calculate just how much of that space is nitrocellulose and how much is air. That ratio of powder to nothingness will remain close to constant, no matter how big or small the grains. It would be exactly the same if the dimensions of the available space was an exact multiple of the grain dimensions, and it would move away from constant as smaller and smaller non-multiple case are used. The .30 Badger sounds like an excellent target or small game cartridge. But we are talking small.


If, however, you mix rather than tightly sandwich grains of very different sizes, the smaller ones intrude into the spaces between the larger ones. You get a more than 100% load, much increasing the early pressure, without any feeling of compression.

[Nobade]

Another fellow here in town is working with just that. Trying to get just the right powder burn rate to make his 7 inch AR-15 300BLK to work right. I don't know which powders he's using, but we decided the rule should be to use powders that are the same size and shape, and close to the same burn rate. So far I haven't heard much news - either wonderful accuracy or blown up guns, so I guess he's still working on it.

-Nobade

[geargnasher]

Hodgdon does, it, it's called Superformance and LeveRevolution. But I like the reactive filler concept, sort of duplexing in reverse.

Gear

[McFred]

I tried 'reactive filler' this last weekend. I've been tinkering off and on with a 35rem PP load and I was seeing high(er) pressure with a full load of H414. I had tried it with CoW as a filler and a thin wad but I figure I've got a heap of this 860 I can use too. Easier to meter than CoW too.

Seems to work fine. No significant pressure signs and reasonable accuracy (at least to about 85 yards) and plenty of oomph with a 215gr bullet.

[Nobade]

I tried the reactive filler idea today with my 416 Taylor. Didn't want to go over 65gr. of IMR3031, and that left some space in the case. So I topped it off with .7cc WC860, which filled the case halfway up the neck. The boolit seats right to the base of the neck, so in addition to taking up space it gave me a bit of compression. It worked wonderfully! 400gr. at 2350 fps with around 1 1/4 MOA accuracy, no pressure problems, and best of all no cleaning filler residue out of the fired cases.

-Nobade

[303Guy]

These wouldn't be mixed loads unless you deliberately (and for some unknown reason) mixed each load before pouring into the case. Load from a measure hopper of mixed powder? No, nobody would... would they?

They might have - maybe.

Think Varget (large kernels) and H4227 (small kernels) in a hornet, mixed, separate, various ratios and so on. Works great. But not as great as Lil'Gun. The mixed powders produced better velocity than H4227 on its own. The reactive filler concept would have been even better. I'd have opted for W748 in the hornet if I'd had it.

[Hamish]

Hodgdon does, it, it's called Superformance and LeveRevolution. But I like the reactive filler concept, sort of duplexing in reverse.

Gear

Calling it "Reactive Filler" is an interesting idea, as long as we remember that its the act of loading one powder on top of another, and that it IS duplexing.

[Nobade]

Calling it "Reactive Filler" is an interesting idea, as long as we remember that its the act of loading one powder on top of another, and that it IS duplexing.

Ya, the "reactive filler" name started as a bit of a joke. A lot of us around these parts work with epoxy quite a bit, and sometimes you use a reactive diluent to thin it. Something that will alter the characteristics and cure along with the rest of the batch. So, the term reactive filler - it does the job of a inert filler, but is consumed and does add a tiny bit of energy to the whole equation. But you are right, it really is a duplex load - just backward from what is traditionally thought of as such.


-Nobade

[Canuck Bob]

This idea is intriguing. I'm looking at traditional lever actions 32 Special, 32-20, 444 and want to seat the bullet firmly on the powder charge to eliminate any concern about bullet set back in the magazine.