Odd 30-30 Chronograph Results on 311041GV _ Any Ideas?

[MBTcustom]

This morning I took 50 rounds out loaded with IMR 4895 to test with the chronograph. As you can see from the attached data sheet the 4895 is a vast improvement over the IMR 4198 both in reduction of Extreme Spread and Standard Deviation. Unfortunately I'm not using a bench rest so to speak but using the bed of my Rhino as a rest and a folding chair so getting an accuracy comparison is just not gonna happen right now. I'm going to have to break down and drive out to the rifle range and use a real bench rest as well as shoot both at 50 and 100 yards.

The 27.5gr and 28.0gr loads "appeared" to give the best groups and I don't have a clue as to where the 29.0gr loads were landing but it definitely wasn't on the paper. I'm quite happy with the 27.5-28.0 loads as far as the numbers go, more than enough umph to knock down a deer. Now if I can determine whether or not it's the boolits wandering or my lousy rifle skills (I'm betting on the latter) and fix that problem I'll be a happy camper.

Unless you do some really fancy footwork, you're not likely to get good accuracy much past 28.5 grains of powder.
I'm glad you started lower than what I recommended. I had thought that the weights I mentioned would put you right in the 1800fps-1900fps range, but obviously I missed my guess pretty badly. I believe your rifle has a 1-10 or 1-10.5 twist rate, and that will make it very difficult to achieve accuracy at speeds greater than 2000FPS.
I believe the accuracy you saw in the 27.5-28 grain range will indeed prove to be your accuracy load.

[Foto Joe]

I'm glad I cooled the loads off a little too. After your post I talked to Larry Gibson and he confirmed that I could run up to 30.0 grains but risked powder compression and I decided to play it a little on the safe side. The 29.0 grain loads had quite a bark to them and I did manage to hit paper with one at 100 yards but the other nine went somewhere other than where they were pointed. I will also mention that all shots were individually loaded through the ejection port and not the magazine.

I'm going to load up 30 27.5's and 30 28.0's and go out to our "Not always so friendly" shooting complex hopefully next weekend and shoot from an actual support at both 50 and 100 yards. Hopefully with a good rest I can determine exactly where these things are landing and dial myself in.

[44man]

Friend was out yesterday to check his 270 sights, Shot two (factory loads) and was in the bull. I let him shoot my Marlin and he hit everything at 100, cans, etc. He was quite taken with the lever gun and wants one now.
Still trying to get him into revolvers.

[Echo]

FWIW - I always listen to ANYTHING Larry, Tim, or 44man say - they are 'way smarter than I when it comes to the subjects on this forum.

[John Van Gelder]

Every gun is different. You pretty much have to experiment with your gun until you get the right load. The Lyman manual lists 18 gr., of 4198 as the potentially most accurate load with the 311041 bullet.

I would be a bit careful using fillers, as the "jury" is still out on that as far as "ringing" in chambers/barrels.

A load the worked well for me with the 311391 was 30 gr. of 3031 from one of the very old Lyman manuals.

[44man]

Seems powder choice is the secret to the 30-30, no need to push the devil out of it either. I am so happy with mine I am not going higher.

[Larry Gibson]

I would be a bit careful using fillers, as the "jury" is still out on that as far as "ringing" in chambers/barrels.

The jury has been in a long time with the verdict. Like anything else use a wrong filler and bad things can happen. Use the right filler with the right weight cast bullet with the right powder and all is well.

You should differentiate between "filler" and a "wad" as it is the "wad" that is most often the culprit. With the loads Fotojoe is talking about with 4895 there is not room for filler nor wad. Lyman bases it's most accurate load on internal ballistics and does not shoot for accuracy on target anymore, hasn't for quite a few years. Joe is shooting for accuracy on target for a hunting load. The 170 gr cast bullet at 1900 - 2100 fps makes a dandy hunting 30-30 load. It's what the 30-30 is supposed to be, no sense IMHO to settle for less.

Larry Gibson

[Motor]

Forgive me for asking but I don't understand how a polyester material (plastic fluff?) can work in such a high heat enviroment. It seems like it would melt and cause a mess. Obviously it works but how? Does it simply burn to ash?

Motor

[Tatume]

The polyester material is exposed to the heat for such a brief time that it doesn't transfer sufficient energy to ignite or melt.

[John Van Gelder]

One of the main causes of leading in gun barrels is the use of under sized bullets, the hot gases ablate the trailing edges on the bullet and deposit metal in the rifling, something that is less likely to occur with a tight fitting bullet. Which in turn begs the question is the trailing edge of the bullet being melted, if it is then it would follow that synthetic fibrous materials are also subject to melting. Which then could be a cause of ringing in chambers/barrels.

The use of fillers and wads has been around for a very long time, the use of everything from cardboard, wads of toilet paper, kapok, felt, etc., etc. and the contraversy about the pros and cons of such usage, has been quite heated at times.

With very light powder charges, a easier solution is to elevate the muzzle of the firearm prior to each shot to settle the powder as close to the primer as possible. Glenn Fryxell, is well published and has made some definitive studies on this topic.

[Tatume]

While I will not go so far as to state that bullet bases do not melt, I know of no reliable experiments that show that they do. What happens in a high pressure environment is not comparable to our experiences in a one-atmosphere environment. There are other mechanisms by which lead can be transferred from a bullet to a barrel wall.

The most common justification for this claim is that it "just makes sense." Many things that seem to just make sense don't.

[John Van Gelder]

And water boils at 212 deg. F, at one atmosphere, 14.7# at sea level. Therefore it follows that lead would melt at the flame temperature of gun powder an average is around 800 deg. F, then we add in the factor of pressure, between 14,000-60,000psi., all ball park figures. A lot of the stuff that makes sense, "does".

More to the point of the thread, we were looking for explanations for variances in velocities, there are a number of factors, case volume, case length, flash hole diameter, uniformity of charge weights, placement of the carge in the case in respect to the primer, uniformity of primer ignition, a varaible due to clean v dirty primer pocket, variables in crimp if used, uniformity in bullet weight.

[303Guy]

It seems like it would melt and cause a mess.

Sometimes it melts, sometimes it doesn't. If it does melt it forms a little ball. Melting or not will be consistent with a given load. Cotton wool can be made to ignite (which can set the countryside on fire) but often it doesn't even scorch.

While I will not go so far as to state that bullet bases do not melt, I know of no reliable experiments that show that they do.

I know of a few experiments that show that they don't. Mine.

The boolit sides can melt though. Not so much melting as gas erosion. I recovered a 44 mag boolit that had been eroded between the rifling impressions, leaving the rifling impressions slightly proud (but no rifling skid). Gas erosion can be quite severe on the boolit base edges with deep channels being cut.

[Larry Gibson]

John Van Gelder

Plain based cast bullet bases don't melt....proven fact. The sides get "cut" or "eroded" by the high pressure gas moving at very high velocity......fact. Yes water boils at 212 degrees.....however the water has to reach that temperature first to boil. Setting a pan of water on a sufficient heat source will not cause the water to boil instantly.....it takes time. Same with the bullet base......not enough exposure time to the burning powder flame temperature for the lead alloy to reach melting temperature. What some thinks is happening doesn't.

The Dacron filler reduces the case capacity and keeps the powder in a uniform position against the primer. A "variable due to clean vs dirty primer pocket"? Someone certainly has much better equipment to measure pressure, velocity and time of flight in a 30-30 lever action than I..........being able to measure that variable in a lever action rifle as it applies to accuracy, or velocity variation or pressure variation is pretty awesome indeed!

"With very light powder charges" Perhaps someone should re-read this thread and the OP's question and intent. Even with the 4198 charges the OP was using they are not considered "very light". Using 27 - 30 or so gr of 4895 in the 30-30 gives one 95 - 100+ % loading density......again not hardly a "very light" charge. Additionally since someone obviously missed it the OP wants a deer hunting load. Not too many deer stand around letting you raise the muzzle to position the powder and lower it slowly to shoot them..........

You can raise all the much discussed "pro's and con's" about the use of fillers you want but you might want to read the sticky on fillers. In that you will find the why, the when and the how of filler use as proscribed by most on this forum. Lots to learn there if you have an open mind. You might want to read the current thread running on the use of a Dacron filler. Too much success with a Dacron and the pufflon type fillers to ignore. That might be a more appropriate thread for you to argue your case.

Some of us have the equipment to measure pressures and what happens with and w/o an appropriate filler with an appropriate powder and an appropriate bullet weight. That knowledge based on science has taken the guesswork, the witchcraft and the myth out of the question. Now, in reloading many things we use can be very dangerous if we choose/use the wrong things. That includes the ho and the when to use a filler. If you bother to read the sticky on fillers pay attention to post #4. It explains it there. The rest of the thread is also very informative.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Larry came through again! Boolits do not melt, they can be cut from pressure. Mostly an ill fitting boolit or too soft so it skids, opening channels.
Dacron will not melt, I picked up too much in front of the bench that was only dirty. Even poly wads that could be used again.
Time is the answer, you can quickly pass your hand through a propane torch flame. Powder heat can exceed the melting point of steel but does not melt your barrel. Leakage will increase steel erosion from pressure so it is always best to stop leakage.
They cut steel with water jets so think of gas pressure in that way. If your rifle throat gets eroded, further erosion happens much faster from more leakage.
Make your boolit the plug. Hard boolits are not the problem, FIT is.