Testing the 30XCB

[geargnasher]

Also, I WAS pretty low on the rifle. The benches are low and I hunker down a bit. Maybe that's why it bucks so much.

Yes, Tim, that would help. I can shoot regular rifles very well without all the contraptions, maybe I should just sand all this finish and tape off and Tru-Oil the thing, or buy a full-on shooting sled.

Gear

[runfiverun]

they done everything but lag bolt the mount to the cement bench, and put a remote trigger pull on the thing.
a couple of refinements and some servo's and they should be able to actually shoot groups from their computer.

[MBTcustom]

Also, I WAS pretty low on the rifle. The benches are low and I hunker down a bit. Maybe that's why it bucks so much.

Yes, Tim, that would help. I can shoot regular rifles very well without all the contraptions, maybe I should just sand all this finish and tape off and Tru-Oil the thing, or buy a full-on shooting sled.

Gear

I wouldn't really call it a "contraption". It's a simple aluminum plate screwed to the bottom of your stock that simply widens the footprint and turns your V bottom fishing boat into a pontoon platform that doesn't roll over so easy. If you're trying to shoot from bags, that stock is not the way to roll. Brad's rifle rides the bags like a railroad car because it's wide enough to do so. Yours was made more as a tacticool stock for use with a bipod.
It's just a simple way to eliminate a serious design flaw and let you put your focus more on trigger control rather than rifle control if you catch my drift.

Only reason I bring it up is because I've been dealing with similar aggravations and while I can muscle through, I really would rather focus on the issue at hand. I don't think I get any extra points for shooting a small group with a rifle that's hard to shoot vs a rifle that was designed to shoot in this manner.

[Bjornb]

I actually did get to shoot tonight after work. Range was a balmy 70F, overcast, and ZERO wind, it's the calmest I've ever seen it there. Fall grass is in full seed, so there are "wind flags" from front berm all the way to the benches. Load was 44.5 grains of H-414 and enough buffer to sift in 3/32" above where the bullet base was to be seated. Brass was LC-69, second firing in this gun, primers were Federal 210, what I use for most everything that counts. Bullets were AM 31-190X, wd 50/50 aged five weeks, at 21 bhn. Hornady checks, put on base first while sizing .310 and lubing, then pushed through a .309 Lyman H-die with a press adapter (Lee-style). Lube was Felix, standard version, bore was scrubbed with solvent and a brush until completely clean, light residue of Ed's Red remaining, chamber dried. Bullets seated to just touch the lands at the very tip of the nose, otherwise they have a bit of a running start.

Groups were fired left to right, the first shot went high right in the left group. First five were culls based on neck thickness, felt both with the RCBS M-spud and when seating bullets in the customized Forster Benchrest die. They didn't shoot any worse than any of the other groups discounting the clean-bore flyer even though some of those cases will be tossed due to not holding the bullet firmly at all.

The final group, on the right, was a heartbreaker. First two shots went into the same hole dead-center. I SOOOO wanted to stop right there, but the remaining three rounds were "good" by my best estimation so I shot them as intended. Third shot went left, next one dropped low right, last one a tidge farther out to the left.

I'll say one thing, and it's not an excuse, but an observation. My bag technique stinks. I couldn't get comfortable, and the Teflon stock tape was binding in the bags, I guess due to humidity and leather. The first two groups were fired with my jacket on (yes, I wear a light mechanic's jacket any time it is below 75 degrees), the last two without the jacket and after spraying some silicone on the bags (no talc or graphite handy). This rifle is too light for free recoil and kicks too much to hold still, so I pulled it in hard to my shoulder and let it do it's thing, which after firing was jump way up and to the left, almost out of the front rest. I had to re-arrange everything after every shot and wiggle the rifle around quite a bit to relieve bind or preload forces. I think my trigger control is pretty good, I focus a lot on that, and didn't call any off shots. I could feel the rifle jump a little differently each time, though, as it bound slightly in the bags. Pulling back and forth to settle and check for binding spots before each trigger pull hopefully helped, but they shouldn't have been there in the first place. Next time I'll either lube the bags or hold the rifle with both hands and just use the bags for props.

I don't know how fast these were going, but without buffer on a hotter day this load chrono'd at 2540 fps and groups were more like 2-3".

Gear

D@mn good shooting Gear. Wish I could do that in my 14 twist rifle, and you're shooting a 12! Your estimated MV sounds spot on when I compare it to my loads with the same powder. Back to the bench (both loading and shooting).

[Bjornb]

Gear, I have shot some groups like your last one and I found out what a I was doing wrong, the rear bag was not parallel to the front rest during rifle recoil. What looks like happened with your group is the rear bag was turned slightly to the left (looking down on it) causing the rear of the rifle to track to the right and pointing the muzzle to the left.


As a test try putting the rifle in the rest with it aimed at the target, and then deliberately turn the rear bag slightly left or right, then slowly pull the rifle back by the butt stock. If the bag is turned slightly counter clockwise the rifle points to the left, and if it is turned slightly clockwise the rifle points to the right.

Doc,
thanks for that tip. I think I've been shooting a lot with my rifle "cocked" on the rests as you describe.

[dtknowles]

Doc,
thanks for that tip. I think I've been shooting a lot with my rifle "cocked" on the rests as you describe.

My thanks to Doc too, last range trip my rifle was moving to the right and I was thinking it was my grip. I will be checking the rear bag more closely.

Tim

[geargnasher]

they done everything but lag bolt the mount to the cement bench, and put a remote trigger pull on the thing.
a couple of refinements and some servo's and they should be able to actually shoot groups from their computer.

One needs much less equipment than that to shoot groups from a computer

I wouldn't really call it a "contraption". It's a simple aluminum plate screwed to the bottom of your stock that simply widens the footprint and turns your V bottom fishing boat into a pontoon platform that doesn't roll over so easy. If you're trying to shoot from bags, that stock is not the way to roll. Brad's rifle rides the bags like a railroad car because it's wide enough to do so. Yours was made more as a tacticool stock for use with a bipod.
It's just a simple way to eliminate a serious design flaw and let you put your focus more on trigger control rather than rifle control if you catch my drift.

Only reason I bring it up is because I've been dealing with similar aggravations and while I can muscle through, I really would rather focus on the issue at hand. I don't think I get any extra points for shooting a small group with a rifle that's hard to shoot vs a rifle that was designed to shoot in this manner.

Is THAT why the stock came with two sling studs bolted through the forend?

Seriously, you know what's up. I really thought hard about siamesing a Baltic Birch plywood pad into the forend, but thought nahh, I'll just sand off the stippling where it touches the bags, put on some stock tape, and just hold it up like a man. Well, I'm a 6'-even, 160 lbs when wet, distance runner who's built like a praying mantis. I don't hold nuthin' still by force. Definitely need to change some things, this is all a big learning experience for me.

Gear

[HangFireW8]

I seat my .30 gas checks on a 45 sizer on my 4500. That way I don't have to worry about alignment.

[btroj]

Btroj Beat the mirage with sun shades for your scope. Ever wonder why some target rifle have a full length Shade on the scopes another way is a strap that hooks on to the barrel and action designed to break up the heat from boiling.

I have a sun shade but it isn't near long enough. Time to peruse the Sinclair catalog again.

The strap type shade would require a stud on the front of the barrel to attach it to, that isn't my idea of good right now. Sunshades are far easier to attach.

[detox]

I know some Bench rifles require a rest, but I dreaded taking that heavy cast iron Hart shooting rest to the range. I now use a much simpler and lighter bi pod with my factory Remington VS with rounded rough forearm. I have seen some amazing groups shot using a bipod.

[MBTcustom]

Here's my thought (feel free to disagree with me):
With normal shooting, the object of burning the powder is to improve the shooter. However, many of you have improved your proficiency with a rifle to the point where it becomes difficult to distinguish between the errors you induce into the equation and the errors with the loads, the rifle, the alloy, the lube, etc etc etc.
The point of the XCB project was to eliminate or minimize these issues as much as possible in order to place clear emphasis on the loads only.
We have match barrels, chambered concentrically, and most of us know very well how to load and shoot.
Seems to me that in order to take the stock and bags etc etc out of the picture in order to focus more easily on the objective, we would want the most consistent method of support available.

For instance, on a good day with the wind at my back using a precision rifle with proven loads, I can deliver 5 shot groups in the 1/2" range at 100 yards using a bipod. Big whoop.
Using the same rifle on a bad day with low sleep, and pain in my legs, from a contorted shooting position, I can't give 3" groups using the same equipment.
For me, this is not the case with a good rest, a heavy rifle, and a forend that rides the bags like Santa's sleigh. It just minimizes my ability to induce error into the situation.
This is why I'm thinking of ditching the hunting stock, and building on a stock with a wide forend that was designed not for versatility, but for a single purpose that just happens to coincide with our projects.
Just something to think about.

[tomme boy]

Gear, what about making a half-as*ed platform out of a piece of 2x4 that is attached with some velcro or double sided tape to try to see if it rides a little better? Just attach it to the forearm with some teflon on the bottom. It should work without destroying the stock to see if you want to get the ones that SGT Mike posted. And cheap to do.

[tomme boy]

Tim, what about what I described that you can attach and detach that looks really good like it was actually made that way. So you can attach the flat forearm to the stock when you want to shoot groups and detach when you go hunting. I think that would be a very versatile stock. A all wood stock like that would look cool.

[MBTcustom]

Tim, what about what I described that you can attach and detach that looks really good like it was actually made that way. So you can attach the flat forearm to the stock when you want to shoot groups and detach when you go hunting. I think that would be a very versatile stock. A all wood stock like that would look cool.

Almost anything would work, but you absolutely must have rigidity, and a solid attachment to the stock. It's got to support the stock and guide it as it recoils through the bags. That's a pretty violent event, and just like the bedding of the action, you're looking for perfect repeatability shot to shot.
What Gear has now, is akin to bolting the barreled action into a stock that was inlet for a different action, and only tightening the stock bolts to 5 inch pounds. Yeah, you can make it work if you hold your head right, but it takes skill to do so, which takes focus from other things IMHO.

That said, I would think that if it were mine, and I wanted to be able to remove it at a later time, I would take a piece of hardwood and drill holes through for the sling studs, counterbore them for the boltheads, then inlet a rough channel in the sled, then spray the stock with release agent and bed the block to the stock exactly like we do a barreled action on the other side. Once the bedding had hardened, I would crack it loose, clean up the excess, and then screw it back in place.
Voila! No blood no fowl, and easy to do.

[Love Life]

Gear- What is your rifle action? I have a spare A-5 stock sitting here inletted for Remington 700 footprint you can use. Should allow you better shooting from the bags.

[geargnasher]

Gear, what about making a half-as*ed platform out of a piece of 2x4 that is attached with some velcro or double sided tape to try to see if it rides a little better? Just attach it to the forearm with some teflon on the bottom. It should work without destroying the stock to see if you want to get the ones that SGT Mike posted. And cheap to do.

I'm trying to decide whether to cobble together a platform that attaches to the front sling stud, or get a bipod. I like that rail system Sgt Mike linked, too, but not ready to commit. The price is sure right, though, and opens up a lot of options. $50 gets a rail and platform, obviously some stock work required but one could put anything they wanted on it.

Gear

[Doc Highwall]

Here are some more ideas of importance to shooting for everyone.
http://www.sinclairintl.com/shooting...prod45123.aspx

http://www.sinclairintl.com/shooting...prod35661.aspx

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shoot...es-from-bipod/

[detox]

I have the Harris S (swivel) series Model BRM bipod. With long Alpha Bravo plastic bipod locking lever. The locking lever makes cant adjusting lots easier.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/155...ProductFinding

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/274...ProductFinding

The Atlas PSR bipod is very good also, but pricey.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/316...ProductFinding

[detox]

Have you guys seen NOE's new 30-30 bullet? Taper bump maybe?

[freebullet]

I have used a dangerous game machine rest with the hydraulic trigger release to remove my mistakes from the equation. It's not as much fun as shooting and takes a few minutes to set up, but it shows what a given load and gun will do without you.

A 300 Weatherby mag that a friend wanted to sight in sold me on how useful it can be. Neither of us could do very well with that rifle(gun too light & trigger to heavy imo). It would shoot the same hole repeatedly when mounted in the machine rest. Of course it won't improve your shooting, but when testing using a light hard kicking rifle it works great without modifying your rifle.