Testing the 30XCB

[Larry Gibson]

So Frank where are your HV results?

How about letting me borrow that mould? I promise a quick turn around. I will test it from 2500 to 2900+ fps. Then we'll have the real answer.

Larry Gibson

[frnkeore]

How about letting me borrow that mould? I promise a quick turn around. I will test it from 2500 to 2900+ fps. Then we'll have the real answer.

Larry Gibson

I bought mine, they are still for sale and Al has some of the fastest shipping times.

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

That's what I thought. Talk, claims but no real results. I've spent enough of my own time and resources in the past producing results for you're conjectures. I don't need t buy a mould to answer your questions. You have the mould and it would be decent of you to assist. However you choose not to. Guess that answers a question of and into itself.

Larry Gibson

[frnkeore]

Larry,
This conversation started regarding your assumptions about the ELCO 169 bullet. I made no claims as to anything but, the dimensions of the bullet that I designed. We all know what assume means.

At this point, I'm building a rifle to take to a 10 day, 500+ round shoot in Spokane, WA. I have to finish it (should be tommorow) then take it to the range and try to find a load for it (it's a 30/30 Wesson. Tappered 357 Max case to 30 cal) there is no known data for this cartridge so, I don't even know if I can use it in the match yet. I may have to use my 33 cal Borchardt, that is ready. I have to leave on the 7th.

So, pardon me if I can't work to your time table.

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

Frank

You really mean to tell us there are no post offices between Central Point and Spokane? Sorry but I am a native Oregonian and also lived in Washington for 20 years and have traveled all the ways to get to Spokane from Oregon. You have plenty of opportunity to mail the mould. Max effective range of your excuse is zero meters. Besides there is really no hurry on this end so I can easily wait 'til after the 10 days and work with your time table. BTW I will pay the postage back and refund your postage cost to mail to me?

Larry Gibson

[Nrut]

Frank,
I haven't really been following your bullet designs, but am under the impression you designed them for CBA match shooting at the lower velocities which CBA members shoot their matches..
Am I all wet or did you design them for high velocity?

Either way best of luck in your up coming match..

[frnkeore]

Frank,
I haven't really been following your bullet designs, but am under the impression you designed them for CBA match shooting at the lower velocities which CBA members shoot their matches..
Am I all wet or did you design them for high velocity?

Either way best of luck in your up coming match..

I'm a competive shooter and what matters most to me is accuracy. In competitive shooting the wind is always your enemy and I strive to reduce wind drift as much as possible, Whether it be by BC or velocity. But, for me, less wind drift, always has to come with accuracy as good or better than what ever I've tried before. You can't win a match with just velocity or a high BC. So, velocity and BC are places I experiment.

Spitzers are accurate bullets. Back in the 70's - 80's People used to say that a spitzer couldn't shoot and that the nose was the down fall to them and it would slump but, starting in the early 80's, some of the top shooters started using them in my sport (Schuetzen), each year more and more shooters started winning with tapered spitzers (.003 - .005 taper). The taper aids breech seating, w/o deformation and these bullets are soft, 20 - 25/1.

Now, ALL the top shooter use spitzer bullets with a minimum 3 cal ogive and most in the 4 cal ogive range. Meplats run from .030 in 25 cal, to .050 to .08 in 30 - 33 cal. We shoot at up to 1680 fps, always with PB bullets.

I designed the ELCO 169 to be able to use PB in Schuetzen and in CBA matches with a GC and velocitys to at least 2200+ fps. The + remains to be seen. I have two rifles that will get it to at least 2500 in one and 2600+ in the other one and will pursue that when I can but, my match shooting comes first.

The design criteria is that it cast no larger than .310 so, it can be sized to as small as .308 w/o much distortion or be shot as is, in a lot of match chambered 30 cal CBA type rifles.

That it be light enough that recoil is held to a minimum, especially in the production and Milsurp classes and have a BC advantage that usually only comes with 200+ gr bullets.

The ogive was configured so that it has a approx. 1.5 deg angle, to approximate '06 and many 308 match chambers leads.

Only time will tell how successful it is

Frank

[Hamish]

Frank

You really mean to tell us there are no post offices between Central Point and Spokane? Sorry but I am a native Oregonian and also lived in Washington for 20 years and have traveled all the ways to get to Spokane from Oregon. You have plenty of opportunity to mail the mould. Max effective range of your excuse is zero meters. Besides there is really no hurry on this end so I can easily wait 'til after the 10 days and work with your time table. BTW I will pay the postage back and refund your postage cost to mail to me?

Larry Gibson

As a Frank stated in the previous post, the conversation between you two started over your conjectures on the perceived inadequacies of the Elco bullet. The arrogance and ill manners you've displayed in this thread over the last couple of days are not only unbecoming, but downright trollish and disgusting.

[runfiverun]

Hamish is correct.


Larry consider this a warning.
I'm not going to p.m. it to you.
continue with your attitude and points will be issued. [followed by further action]

read what you have written and the tone you have used.
it will not be tolerated, and is in violation of the t.o.s.

[Doc Highwall]

I can see where some of the bantering can come about as to what helps accuracy, but first we have to establish what the parameters are for each of us.

The 30XCB has been designed for high velocity for shooting at extended distance meaning 600 yards and beyond. The time of flight is reduced with a higher muzzle velocity which also is helped by having a slower twist and longer barrels.

The Elco bullet sounds like it has been designed for short range 100 to 300 yards benchrest shooting at slower velocities where a more pointed higher B.C. bullet has an advantage without needing a long barrel with a slower twist.

The chamber pressures exerted upon the 30XCB bullet are going to be much higher along with other forces such as torque from the rifling in obtaining high velocity with accuracy of greater then 2 minutes of angle.

The Elco bullet has been designed to be shot with a standard twist barrel and achieve the greatest accuracy at 100 to 300 yards at lower velocities and chamber pressure.

This sounds like the two different types of shooting has crept into the discussion of the 30XCB bullet project causing a rift, and a separate thread for short range benchrest shooting would be in order which I am also interested in.

I am looking for shooting my guns with the greatest accuracy, but the gun I will use for benchrest will be different then something that is designed for prone shooting at long range like Palma Matches.

So please take what I said with respect as to what type of shooting you are doing, either benchrest or prone as to your opinion, and that it is the same type of shooting as the person you are conversing with.

[MBTcustom]

I agree completely.
This thread was created as a place to discuss pushing the speed up primarily with an ultimate goal of bringing precision along as a secondary objective. Everything I have has been given to this pursuit, and my associates have done the same. Astronomical expense has been sacrificed in an effort to realize high velocity with accuracy.
High velocity with accuracy.
That very statement indicates our priorities here. In almost every other facet of this sport, the focus is accuracy, with as much velocity as you can get away with. It's a basic difference of viewpoint.
Concerning shooting high velocity with accuracy, no one has as much knowledge or data to back up the facts of life than Larry Gibson, and his input has been an invaluable asset to this magnificent effort we are participating in, and he is very rarely wrong.
This entire effort has been grounded on solid measurements, and known fact. We accept nothing else, and when we find ourselves in muddy water, we stop and clear it before we move forward. Our effort is so focused on bringing scientific reality to a facet of the sport that is shrouded in bad facts, misleading documentation, and biased observation, that it becomes very easy to impose those requirements on others who have no need to hold to such stringent ideals.
I would beg the pardon of men such as frnkeore, and beg patience from the membership in general, as what we are doing is very expensive, and very hard, but at the same time very effective.

To those involved in this high velocity pursuit, please resist the urge to impose our standards on others. I realize that loose science is the reason this has never been successfully documented and advancements have been hindered, but the reason why is that many people simply will not subject themselves to the standards we have laid down.
Past that, using a superior method to beat someone over the head with is extremely bad form. We must do what we do, and if others see the value in it, they are welcome to participate, but if not, just let the rough edge drag gentlemen.
We are here to shoot and blaze a trail to high velocity shooting that any member can follow. That is the goal. Anything less is not worth the effort.

[Nrut]

Thanks for your reply Frank..
I have seen you mention a number of times about re-throating factory throats to accommodate a particular bullet design..
This would be in "factory class" CBA matches IIRC..
That's what I am interested in the most as the particular bullet design I have in mind is to long for both my .308 and 30-06..
I do have shorter examples of this design (125 grs.) that fit the factory throat length wise to test first..
If tests work out like I think they will, I will contact you via PM or start a thread on the CBA website on custom throat reamers as to where to get them and how to use them..

Thanks again

[detox]

LBT likes a longer freebore length close to groove size diameter for best results. So my .310 cutter may be a tad too large in diameter for Frank's or Larry's bullets to work their best.

I also have a .308 diameter, 1.20 degree per side cutter.

[Mike H]

I have followed Larry Gibson's writings for some time,they are well presented without any bull dust,yet he is regularly attacked by people who can see anything in his work,except what he has written.Why he bothers to persevere on this site is beyond me.If he is driven off,it will be a great loss to the Cast Boolits Forum.
Mike H.

[MBTcustom]

I await Bjorns tests of the two bullets side by side.

[DR Owl Creek]

Doc,
I really do agree with the differant thread on the two differances of styles

+1

There has been so much good information presented so far. Lets keep it going!


Dave

[dtknowles]

Actually what style of shooting was the XCB bullet and cartridge designed for.

Tim

[MBTcustom]

Actually what style of shooting was the XCB bullet and cartridge designed for.

Tim

Speed. With accuracy.
The platform may vary depending on the discipline, but a cartridge is a cartridge and a bullet is a bullet.
The XCB was designed to give a cast bullet the most comfortable situation, and the rifles have been made with slow twist barrels to follow suit. Once the objective is achieved (HV with accuracy), I could construct a rifle around virtually any shooting style you could imagine.
Since we are in the design/testing phase of this cartridge, most of the rifles were built to be solid benchrest test beds. Nothing more. I thought that was obvious.

[frnkeore]

Speed. With accuracy.
The platform may vary depending on the discipline, but a cartridge is a cartridge and a bullet is a bullet.
The XCB was designed to give a cast bullet the most comfortable situation, and the rifles have been made with slow twist barrels to follow suit. Once the objective is achieved (HV with accuracy), I could construct a rifle around virtually any shooting style you could imagine.
Since we are in the design/testing phase of this cartridge, most of the rifles were built to be solid benchrest test beds. Nothing more. I thought that was obvious.

Tim,
What is it that makes the XCB bullet better than all others for HV work. Is it a single difference or a combination of things?

Is it the band configuration, the short OA length, the Ardito/Eagan type, tapered nose. Did Al aid in the design? Did you do any testing to prove out the features to before getting your final configuration?

I'm NOT trying to start anything, as a bullet designer, I have a genuine interest in how you came to it's final design and I'm sure that others will also be interested, too.

Frank

[detox]

Frank, What is the ultimate design for high velocity work? How should leade/thoat be cut? Hasn't Veral been there done that.