Help a newbie develop a PP Bullet.....

[Aaron871]

Lots of Questions... If I'm headed in the wrong direction please correct me.

50 cal Traditions O/U Express (North American Big Game)
1:28 Twist, 24" barrel

1. How do I measure the bore diameter? Best I can tell with my micrometer, they're .4995 They are extremely tight using common sabots. Where do I get the right size lead bullet to "slug" the barrels?

2. How heavy? I'm thinking 500 grains?

3. How hard should my lead be? I'm guessing I will be under 1500 FPS.

4. Where do I get uncommon sized casting dies and sizers? Seems like I will be needing something in the range of .492 but do not see off sizes available at Midwayusa.com

5. How much can I size the bullet down? Can I size the S&W .501 down to .492?

Any help is greatly appreciated....

[montana_charlie]

50 cal Traditions O/U Express (North American Big Game) 1:28 Twist, 24" barrel

Is that a muzzleloading rifle with two barrels?

CM

[Aaron871]

Is that a muzzleloading rifle with two barrels?

CM

yes......

[Nobade]

1. Gauge pins.
2. Good size for 50 cal, 1:28.
3. Pure lead to no harder than 16:1. I'd try 20:1 to start.
4. Several places. Buckshot on this forum makes good sizers. Moulds can come from many places, the cheapest way to do what you want is the Lee 440gr. made for the 500 S&W. Lots of guys use that in their muzzleloaders.
5.Yes. No problem going from .501" to .492"

Two thoughts. One, a double muzzleloader firing bore diameter boolits is kind of dangerous. The recoil from the first shot will certainly set the second one forward. I would only use one barrel if you plan on doing this.

Two. You will get more and better responses in the muzzleloading section, since this room is dedicated to BP and PP in cartridge rifles. Go there and read the stickies about PP and muzzleloaders, all your questions will be answered.

Enjoy your new endeavor!
-Nobade

[Aaron871]

......... a double muzzleloader firing bore diameter boolits is kind of dangerous. The recoil from the first shot will certainly set the second one forward. I would only use one barrel if you plan on doing this. .........

Rut Row...... thanks for the advice. Looks like I'll be moving on to plan B

[johnson1942]

530 grains to 550 grains are perfect for your gun. 500 is a little light. doughty enterprises will make you a push through reduceing die for 31.00 dollars includeing shipping. i just ordered another one to day. if you go to the blog section of ramshot.com and study how to do a single wrap paperpatch system called the chase wrap system you can figure out what thickness of paper to use so it is snug and hold firm in the bore when on the powder but still isnt to hard to put down. with a couple of my guns i use 18 pound freezer wrap paper and with the same bullet in other guns i use 20 pound computer paper. my .50 cal 1/28 twist drives tacks at any range with a 530 grain .492 bullet and a chase wrap of 18 pound freezer wrap paper. my other .50 with slightly larger bore uses the 20 pound computer paper. you will be able to figure it out after you read the article what paper will fit your bullet to your bore. you could also get some test bullet .492 diam 550 grain from buffalo arms on the internet to see how they shoot. also use a 60 thousands fiber wad between bullet and powder. you can buy them from buffalo arms also. let us know how it turns out. your fine gun can be a real shooter. dont go heavy on the charge. start off with 80 grains and dont go over a hundred. recoil can get nasty with the heavier bullets. i push my 530 grain bullet about 1450 ft per sec and that is plenty enough. my 685 grain bullet i push right at 1200 ft per second and that is enough for that one. have fun.

[Aaron871]

Thanks for the reply,

I tried some modern sabots without any success, I can't get this rifle to group at all....

I tried a large variation of ammo I have for my inline CVA's and I purchased some .458 sabots for the .50 so I could try some heaver bullets.

I tried all of the following in plastic sabots, used Pyrodex Pellets and Blackhorn from 80 all the way down to 60 grains. It was a long day...

250g Barnes
265g in a .451 and a .458 configuration
290g Barnes
300g TC's
405g Lead Swaged
450g Copper Barnes
500g Copper Barnes

The 450 and 500 grain bullets were tumbling at very short range. The 405's did the best but were not even close to acceptable at 85 yards.

I just ordered some PP 550grain bullets and wads from Buffalo arms. I don't understand why the PP system needs to be heaver than what I can shoot in a sabot..... but I'm giving it a try.

What primers are you guys using with the Blackhorn?

[montana_charlie]

What primers are you guys using with the Blackhorn?

A good many of the paper patchers here use the mildest primers available.
That frequently turns out to be large pistol primers - with a thick paper shim in the pocket to bring it up level with the case head.

The combination of milder primer and making it burn through a piece of paper is believed to help assure consistency in ES and SD.

But, the guys who frequent this forum section shoot paper patched bullets with Black Powder (in metallic cartridges), and it doesn't take a nuke to make it burn.
Personally, I use the CCI BR-2.

CM

[Nobade]

I just ordered some PP 550grain bullets and wads from Buffalo arms. I don't understand why the PP system needs to be heaver than what I can shoot in a sabot..... but I'm giving it a try.

What primers are you guys using with the Blackhorn?

Well, thay are quite a bit larger in diameter......

And you should find that for a 1:28 twist 50 caliber, 550gr. is going to be about right. I think that's the twist in my Ruger 77/50 and it is amazing with 500 or 550gr. When you do this, watch your patch fragments. If they are coming off in chunks you need to load it hotter. You should get nice little slices of confetti. My own rifle takes at least 90 gr. of hot powder (swiss or old E) or 100gr. of KIK to start working right. Accuracy is miserable with lighter loads but once I hit the right load the patches start looking right and the groups come together. Only have ever shot Blackhorn in my 35 cal. muzzleloader, used Win shotgun primers for that.

Like Montana Charlie says, this is the room for shooting black powder in cartridge cases. You'll have better luck in the muzzleloading room for this rifle. Hint, Hint.....

-Nobade

[Aaron871]

Like Montana Charlie says, this is the room for shooting black powder in cartridge cases. You'll have better luck in the muzzleloading room for this rifle. Hint, Hint.....

-Nobade

Thanks for the help... maybe I can get the thread moved?

[johnson1942]

the reason why you shoot shorter smaller bullets with you twist is because your shooting a .45 cal bullet and the green hill formula comes out for the small .45 cal bullet. the same goes for the .50 cal bullet, the green hill formula works out diff for the ,50 cal. if you shot about a 400 grain short nosed .458 bullet in a sabot that holds a .458 bullet in your 1/28 twist gun you would find that it would drive tacks. i have a custom .50 with a 1/23 twist that i shot target with 685 grain paperpatch. then i converted it to a target sabot gun. i reamed out the lands at the muzzle for 1 inch. then i bought about 900 orange mmp sabots in bulk at a discount. i have a 435 grain short nosed .458 bullet mould i designed and use that in the sabot. i may try it at 1000 yards soon when the weather is cool. at ranges out to 200 yards around the house it drives tacks. the green hill formula works for bullets in sabots as well as bullets that fit the cal. of the barrel. i believe the 550 bullets will give you what you want. makes me want to break out my .50 cal side lock. she shoots a 530 grain ppaperpatched bullet with accuracy that cant be improved upon it is so good. 100 grains of powder behind that bullet will drop anything in north america with a loud smacking sound.