.405 Winchester chambers

[Gemsbok405]

Hi, a keen owner and shooter of a Win 1885 (Miroku) .405 Win traditional hunter as well as a Ruger 1-H tropical in same.

So far done a lot of shooting with the Winchester and a tackdriver...even with Marbles tang sight. It normally takes about 3 shots to get some lube into barrel and then then settles down in that can call the shot as it goes off!

Have a custom Mountain Mould 330gr nominal GC bore rider (sized 0.413"), and average velocity at about 1910 fps.

The chamber is tight (minimum SAAMI spec) in that need the case mouth to be not more than 0.436 to chamber with a cast bullet. With FL RCBS dies, the case is hugely expanded by the length of the bullet into the case...

Have now spent some time with my Ruger, and find shoot's high until the barrel warms up, with side spread of about 1" and vertical 2" (at 100m) from cold to warm barrel.

What is very interesting is that the fired cases in the Ruger drop back in without any resistance and the case mouth is sitting at 0.438. This would suggest that the Ruger chamber is cut to max SAAMI spec of 0.4368 plus 0.002. The fired cases from the Ruger will not go fully into the 1885, in that the case are out of battery by about 0.160" when pushed in tight!

The sized 0.413" cast bullet will go into the Ruger fired case with a tight friction fit.

Going to do some tests with part sizing the cases (for Ruger) with a RCBS trim die and size to 0.437 OD at case mouth to engage with about 0.001 case tension to see if improves accuracy.

Going to do the same with partial trim die sizing on 1885 to see if can get to size by minimum amount to get a more even case "shape"

Brass is factory new Hornardy, once fired.

[bigted]

sounds like fun.

[Ed in North Texas]

"This would suggest that the Ruger chamber is cut to max SAAMI spec..."

That makes sense to me. If Ruger really is making a "Tropical Rifle", minimum chamber specs really don't belong in a rifle used in hot climates for potentially dangerous game. Just my $0.02 (which isn't worth much these days).

[EDG]

Are you aware that the trim dies have FL die body dimensions with a .010 larger neck?

[Gemsbok405]

I would suggest that 90%+ of Ruger 1-H rifles are "safe queens" or just shot on range against paper or metallic targets. As a dangerous game rifle, the human thumb does not have the power to force a cartridge into a badly fouled chamber at all.

For hunting purposes, would be great with a clean minimum spec SAAMA chamber, but not my choice for use where the hunter may become the hunted!

The preferred size for CB accurancy in the 405 Win (Ruger) is a .414 bullet. This is a bit large (0.002 over groove), but fills the chamber out for decent bullet alignment to the throat on ignition. With a .413 bullet often get a flyer, when shot is called "good", and may be as a result of cartridge lying a bit to one side of chamber on ignition...

[Gemsbok405]

Are you aware that the trim dies have FL die body dimensions with a .010 larger neck?

The 405 Win is a straight taper case with no neck! Are you not thinking about a "body / bump" die as used on bottleneck cases?

[EDG]

No
Go buy a few RCBS trim dies and measure them.
Eventually all straight taper cases get a straight neck for seating of the bullet.
You are dwelling on semantics rather than on the mechanics.

The 405 Win is a straight taper case with no neck! Are you not thinking about a "body / bump" die as used on bottleneck cases?

[Clay M]

No
Go buy a few RCBS trim dies and measure them.
Eventually all straight taper cases get a straight neck for seating of the bullet.
You are dwelling on semantics rather than on the mechanics.

This is why I usually buy the Redding trim dies,but my .405 set is RCBS and it does resize the case.
I used to use B.E.L.L. brass for .405 It was all that was available at the time. The Hornady is much better..
As far as chamber fouling,I have not experience that with the loads I use. The barrel is clean enough to drink soup with.
As far as using my Ruger #1 for Cape Buffalo.Hell yes, I will use it today, but I would be using a 400 gr bullet.

[Gemsbok405]

This is why I usually buy the Redding trim dies,but my .405 set is RCBS and it does resize the case.
I used to use B.E.L.L. brass for .405 It was all that was available at the time. The Hornady is much better..
As far as chamber fouling,I have not experience that with the loads I use. The barrel is clean enough to drink soup with.
As far as using my Ruger #1 for Cape Buffalo.Hell yes, I will use it today, but I would be using a 400 gr bullet.

My comment about chamber fouling was from bit of partially / unburnt powder dropping back into chamber. In about 20 shots+ with the 1885 i get about 2 cases with 1 grain of residue at most and rarely 2 pce into chamber. This is with 4350 type stick powders at est 30000 psi. With the 1885 min SAAMI chamber, this is enough to bind the fresh cartridge a bit, bit still goes in...

The Ruger with max SAAMI does not have this problem, but with longer chamber, by approx (saami) 0.015 and normal case /chamber clearance of .040" and if cases are short by 0.010, leaves a nice little place to collect residue (powder or lube) at end of case.

But, with a single wipe with patch with a bit of solvent (turps / thinners etc), the barrel and chamber is spotless. I normally squirt a bit of shooter choice solvent into barrel and brush with fibre brush, but this is habit as barrel is already clean!

[Gemsbok405]

Some interesting data:

Case mouth diameter FL (RCBS) resized - 0.426
Approx mouth ID 0.403
very close to .40-70 case dimensions with 0.406" cast bullet.
But said FL dies would work well with blown out .30-40 krag case with shorter dimensions...this was option when correct 405 Win cases were not available!

RCBS trim die - FL sized - 0.429+" (1 x just for test)

RCBS trim die backed 0.250", case mouth OD 0.432" / ID est 0.410
Sized 0.413 cast bullet will not enter case mouth (<0.413)
Sized cases drop into / out of chamber.

Expand with RCBS .405 expander die/plug - est 0.409 with flare+
0.409 plug goes (by hand) into case with no resistance but little play.
Set plug flare so that full gas check just goes into case.
Flare is hardly visible to eye, and huge difference to flare compared to when used with heavily re-sized FL die...case is worked just enough to firmly hold bullet. Should result in huge improvement in case life!


Load .413 sized and gas checked CB with press, goes into case with light pressure (feels about same as loading 38 spl rounds), but don't get stepped on-off pressure from case pushing on bands / lube grooves as with FL size die usage.

Case expands a minor amount from bullet (with short sizing), and grips bullet well. Small case step behind bullet enought to prevent bullet being driven back into case with a repeater ( Win 1895). Use LEE FCD to remove bell and finish off cartridge.

How does it fit into Ruger #1, drops in 100% with very light holding tension. Knock butt on floor and cartridge drops out...

and with Winchester (Miroku)1885, also goes into with x-light push, but need to work action lever for ejector to extract. Note that the cartridge was fitted with CB with bore ride and is a precise target fit on 1885!

[EDG]

Gemsbok
Thanks for the data on the .405 FL vs .405 trim die. I also discovered that RCBS trim dies are better dimensioned in the neck diameter for lead bullets than the FL die. I have a .50-70 trim die that I have not tried yet but I expect it is going to size the case just right to use a .513 or .514 in my rifle.

This improved fit leads me to assume that if you want an exact number in the FL die neck you should buy a barrel lap and lap your FL die or an extra FL die to the size that gives optimum fit.

About your case getting stuck due to a small chamber with powder grains in it - I have nearly 1000 45-70 cases most bought once or more times fired. A good number of them were dimpled from being fired with powder grains between the case in the chamber. My own shooting of the 45-70 goes back to 1972. I found that if a fast enough powder was used the pressure would be high enough to eliminate the unburned grains of powder (zombies). The slowest powder I have used is IMR 3031 and I got no unburned powder with it at the loads equivalent to a 95 Marlin in my bolt gun.

Since then I have used almost entirely SR4759 with 500 grain bullets. I used a long barreled rifle and got a few unburned grains at 23 grains. I slowly increased the load to 25 grains and the zombies disappeared. I try to stick with powders that give original ballistics at about original 86 Winchester pressures. I would not recomend that for a Trapdoor but it works well for falling block rifles.

If you are having unburned powder, heavy bullets and powders between 2400 and 4198 will help you get rid of them.

[bigowl]

I too have an 1885 Miroku-Winchester traditional hunter in 405 Win. It sees nothing but cast. My elk load is a 350gr. ht with gc, NEI #227 over 50gr. h-4895 or imr-4895. Fired cases drop back in the chamber perfectly. SO, I don't resize at all, just de-cap with a tool from a 45-70 lee loader, trim to length with a lee trimmer, prime, charge and insert the bullet by hand ! I use a .40 cal taper crimp die to tighten the neck up enough to keep the bullet from falling out and they're ready to go.

[marlinman93]

I have numerous rifles I use .405 WIn. brass in, but none are actually .405 chambered rifles. One is a Hepburn in .40-70SS that was relined and short chambered with a .405 Win reamer and rim cut to .405 specs to make reloading easier. The others are .40-63/70 Ballard that use the same brass as donor. All of them have .410"-.411" groove so I use larger neck sizer dies to get the necks expanded to my larger bullet sizes.
On the largest bore I need to ream case necks to seat a .412" bullet in the case and have it still chamber easily. If I don't thin case necks it is a real problem trying to seat a loaded cartridge.
When I seat bullets I only put enough crimp on them to keep the bullets in place. Any extra crimp is unnecessary and doesn't improve accuracy.

[RickinTN]

My 444 and 45-70 dies, if set on the shellholder, size my cases much too small for my chambers. I leave the die well off the shellholder and only size about half the cases, just enough to size the mouth of the case to just under where I'm about to expand it to. It would be similar, I guess, to neck sizing a bottleneck case. It works well for me and I'm sure I'm not working my brass nearly as much as if I ran the cases all the way into the die.
Maybe this helps,
Rick

[John Taylor]

Years ago I did a two barrel set for a takedown 95, one in 405 and the other in 40-72. The difference in the two cartridges is .005" in bullet diameter and the 40-72 is loaded to black powder pressures. The customer sent along ammo so I could test fire and I found the 40-72 a fun rifle to shoot. But when I installed the 405 barrel and fired a factory round I decided that one shot was enough.