25 acp rifle?

[Chev. William]

I am soooooo excited to see that rifle when you get the firing pin figured out! Please please please send me lots of pics.

Which rifle?
If you are referring to the Marlin Levermatic conversion, it is already done by Marlin (for a Model 62) in CF caliber (I bought a 'surplus' Model 62 .256 Win. Mag. Bolt assembly from Numerich Arms and my gunsmith welded and machined the Bolt Face to fit a .25ACP rim). The Extractors (left and Right) are coil spring loaded 'levers' so they easily closed to pick up the new rim size.

If you mean the "modified' Stevens 1915 Favorite Action/Rifle; I bought spare reproduction Extractors Blanks (similar to a 1894 Favorite center line type) of constant width, then had my gunsmith machine the tips to fit each of four different Cartridges: .22LR, .25ACP, .25 Stevens, and .32 Long/.32 Long Colt. I now have them stamped as to cartridge the fit and have stamped them with the Action Serial number as the Pivots in this 'Modified' Action are larger than normal. The Breech Block is still set up for ".22RF" Firing Pin tip position so the other sizes will need to be adapter cases using .22RF blanks centered in the adapter for Ignition.

Perhaps later I will have the Breech Block and Firing Pin modified to allow change over between RF and CF tip positions.

I found on "Ebay" some 1915 Reproduction ".22LR" breech blocks CNC machined from 4140 Alloy Steel for a good ($28.00) price so I bought two and had my gunsmith convert them to CF and weld two "pads on the Rear edges so they could be 'dressed off' to tightly fit against the rear side 'shoulders' of the 1915 Stevens Favorite Action.

Due to other commitments, I did not get to the Range this Thursday to test fire the Favorite, so I changed out the .25ACP Extractor for the .25 Stevens Extractor, temporarily mounted an old Lyman Tang rear sight on it, and cleaned and oiled the bore again. This Stevens ".25 Stevens" barrel is somewhat pitted on the inside but has good visible remaining Rifling from end to end and has had the Crown 'touched up' to be a 'Recessed Target' type to reduce the chance fo future Crown damage in handling.

This barrel and Action is mostly 'in the White' at the moment with the signs of past handling dings still visible on the barrel especially.
The Front sight currently on the barrel is a 'German Silver Reproduction 'Western' style Blade that tapers from low front to high rear over about a 3/4 inch length.

The Rear, Tang, Sight has two sizes of Peep holes built in , with the small hole able to be 'flipped' out of the way of the larger one. It may be too tall for close work as at it's lowest height the sight line is well above that of the old single range notch sight most of my old Stevens Barrels had on them, even with the unmodified Front sight blade.

Other 'putter projects' this week: Get three Micrometers 'unstuck' and working again, including a 0-1" range .0001" measuring "blade" type for measuring narrow groove diameters, I was successful and they are now working for me.
One of the other two, also a .0001" reading 0-1" range is missing the fixed anvil so I will need to see about getting it professionally repaired.
The third one one is also a .0001" reading 0-1" range standard Brown & Sharp model 13 that is now usable but still has some corrosion 'pitting' on the "C".

This has been a productive week for my projects and I have improved my accurate measurement capabilities quite a bit. Before I was limited to a 'Dial Caliper' that has some 'sticking' problems that I have not yet been able to straighten out.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[35remington]

No broadhead or stone arrowhead I've ever seen was "shaft diameter." They are always....always larger. Look at a Clovis point. Shaft diameter points were not used for larger game.

The point about trying to compare a 25 ACP round to an arrowhead is not relevant for that reason. The arrowhead always opens a larger wound channel. No comparison will make a 25 ACP anything but a very, very slow killer of deer sized game with anything but a behind the ear shot, or a much chancier spinal shot, which shouldn't be attempted anyway. If a round won't kill quickly with a higher percentage chest cavity shot, which is a much larger target to hit that moves less than a head, it shouldn't be used for game hunting.

[Chev. William]

From what I have read the Japanese did use some metal 'shaft diameter or smaller' points to 'hunt' bipeds in Armor coats Very Effectively.

Now perhaps the 100-180 lb bipeds are not considered 'Game' in modern Societies, but then again the 'Geneva Conventions' weren't developed until well after the bow and Arrow had been generally replaced with longer range lethal weapons and Plate Armor for personal protection was considered obsolete.

Tung in cheek,
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[35remington]

Great.....but was has that to do with deer or other big game hunting? Anyway, I've made my point. Har!

[badgeredd]

I tried and idea of converting 25 ACP to a reloadable 22 round. My thinking was flawed but I believe a guy could do it if he really wanted to. I've also thought on the 25 ACP rifle idea a bit. IMHO, one could likely make a sleeved or inserted barrel work with a litle thinking. Assuming one would be doing the work himself, it should be relative inexpensive. If I had a large amount of brass, I'd probably look harder into converting a H&R barrel or perhaps a Rossi 410 into a rifle just because. Such a rifle would easily fill the 22LR niche at a reasonable price for ammo.

Another comment for you guys that like to pee in a guy's Wheaties...if you don't like the idea, why don't you just ignore it and move on? The OP asked a question about what HE wanted to do, not about your agreement with HIS idea or your alternate ideas. Show a little respect for anothers thoughts for a change! Rant off...

Edd

[NoAngel]

Exactly Edd. Some folks feel the need to criticize anything that doesn't meet their criteria for being worthy.

[Multigunner]

I have a .25-20, so if I had a .25 ACP pistol I'd consider making a chamber adapter for using the .25 ACP for smaller game and pests.
I suspect Marble may have made one for this purpose.
.25-20 ammo was scarce and expensive when I got this rifle, one day I may not be able to find it at all, so an alternative round would be nice.

[roadie]

I tried and idea of converting 25 ACP to a reloadable 22 round. My thinking was flawed but I believe a guy could do it if he really wanted to. I've also thought on the 25 ACP rifle idea a bit. IMHO, one could likely make a sleeved or inserted barrel work with a litle thinking. Assuming one would be doing the work himself, it should be relative inexpensive. If I had a large amount of brass, I'd probably look harder into converting a H&R barrel or perhaps a Rossi 410 into a rifle just because. Such a rifle would easily fill the 22LR niche at a reasonable price for ammo.

Another comment for you guys that like to pee in a guy's Wheaties...if you don't like the idea, why don't you just ignore it and move on? The OP asked a question about what HE wanted to do, not about your agreement with HIS idea or your alternate ideas. Show a little respect for anothers thoughts for a change! Rant off...

Edd

With more barrel choices available now, I think a .25 ACP rifle would be great. It wouldn't be a lot of work to convert a .410 shotgun to accept a liner, extraction would be the main thing.

I had always wanted a replacement for the .22LR and thought about using the .25 ACP but at the time, around 1995-96, getting a barrel was the problem. I ended up with a shortened Hornet, basically a .22 Squirrel, and it worked out well till I moved on to other things.

I completely agree on the peeing in someone's Wheaties....most of shooting is about having fun....not conforming to someone else's idea of fun. Build whatever you want.

[Jungle867]

There are a few high end .25cal air rifles around, have you thought about a conversion for one? I am sure the action would take some work but your barrel would be set.

[Chev. William]

I would agree that converting an "air rifle" action to a "Center fire" action would take "Some Work" in the same line of reasoning that a Doctor may Tell a patient that a proposed procedure may result in "Some discomfort", when he is really thinking this is probably going to "Hurt Like Hell".

Converting a Rim fire action to Center Fire is a lot easier by comparison.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

With more barrel choices available now, I think a .25 ACP rifle would be great. It wouldn't be a lot of work to convert a .410 shotgun to accept a liner, extraction would be the main thing.

Roadie,
I believe your idea of an 'insert' in a .410 Shot gun has been done.

Another way to add an 'insert' would be to machine a "liner" so the Chamber End exterior fits the .410 Chamber and the 'barrel' portion of the liner is a 'clearance fit' in the .410's Bore, then Thread the 'muzzle end of the liner to take a pair of nuts so it can be tensioned for the installation, thereby 'locking the inserted liner in position. Then the extractor clearance may be cut in the liner Breech end and an extractor fabricated to replace the .410 one, which can be set aside to reinstall if you ever needed to return the Gun to Shotgun use. The Shotgun Barrel must NOT be reduced in length, for Legal reasons. So the .25ACP chambered Liner would end up slightly longer than the original Shotgun Barrel length. Perhaps TJ's would make a 9/16" OD liner in .25ACP for this application as their normal offering is a 7/16" OD liner in .25ACP and that is the same for Track of the Wolfe. The Lothar Walther .25ACP barrel blank is large enough OD and at 23.4" or longer might work in a short .410 Shotgun barrel.

Just my thoughts on your Idea.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have a .25-20, so if I had a .25 ACP pistol I'd consider making a chamber adapter for using the .25 ACP for smaller game and pests.
I suspect Marble may have made one for this purpose.
.25-20 ammo was scarce and expensive when I got this rifle, one day I may not be able to find it at all, so an alternative round would be nice.

Some pistol caliber adapters for 12ga shotguns, cartridge length or with a short extension into the bore, have worked well. They are also very quiet. They might also be legal in jurisdictions where silencers are difficult. You can't expect minute of angle accuracy, for if it is that close a fit in the chamber, it is going to be no fit at all when it is hot. A commercially produced one would surely give fairly poor accuracy, since chambers do vary quite a bit, and a one-size-fits-all adapter would be a loose fit in some. An annular ring (or rings) for rubber O-rings might help, but I haven't heard of them being used.

.25 in a .410 should work well, but I doubt if .25ACP would in a .25-20. The trouble is, you would be using a .251 bullet, possibly spun by rifling in the adapter, and then sending it down a bore of .25 land and .257 groove diameters, with gas escape through the grooves all the way. I can imagine numerous things going wrong even if the rifling had the same twist and number of grooves, and you got the adapter in line every time. But probably you couldn't, and the list lengthens. I think your best bet if you try would be an adapter with a short smoothbore lead, used with a cast or very thinly-jacketed bullet which would upset under initial pressure. I don't know if making that lead .251 or .257 would be best.

I once made a rimfire adapter for a .222 Remington, which gave modest but far from useless accuracy. After one firing you could see the beginnings of a crack in the adapter neck, not open but fibrously linked all the way along. It never got any worse, and doesn't seem to have done any harm. I think you would want to work from a very good Cerrosafe chamber cast.

I think this thread is cruel to people who eat Wheaties, since the experience may never be the same again. We post also for people who may read and decide to adopt the projects themselves. For all the splendid craftsmanship and grasp of technology we have seen there, I think there may be better ways than the .25 ACP of producing a single shot rifle for a small centrefire round.

[Chev. William]

Ahh But... My intent is:
One: Convert a .22LR chambered Marlin Model 56 short throw Lever action Detachable Magazine Rifle to fire .25ACP through a Lothar Walther .25ACP/6.35mm Browning Barrel of maximum possible length (about 23.4" or so) as a Repeating Rifle.
Two: Convert a Single Shot rifle to fire "lengthened .25ACP" experimental cartridges.
Three: Enjoy a 'inexpensive' hobby of Handloading and Cartridge development on a "Shoestring' budget in my advancing age and limited Finances.

Is it "Practical"? I do not know yet.

Is it useful? I think it will be, as the cost per shot is down low and is within my financial reach.

Is it Accurate? That is to be determined, but it is reported that .25 Stevens, firing a 67 grain Lead bullet at about 1100fps was accurate to over 150 yards, and usable for Target shooting out to 200 yards on calm days. The End accuracy of the Converted rifles is highly dependent upon the Gunsmith and components used, and to the capabilities of the person shooting the Rifle.

I am not a 'Hunter' as my body no longer accepts long hilly hikes and my City and County both have 'no hunting' Ordinances, in addition my city also has a "no Discharging firearms outside Regularly Licensed Ranges", Police and Animal Control personnel excepted.

I get to a Range about once a Month, depending upon weather and finances, so my enjoyment is mostly in the 'puttering' between range sessions.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I got 1,000 .251" FMJ RN 50 gr bullets for $10 a few years back.
The only long .251" groove barrels I have seen were the Redman liners.
I have done various overload experiments on the 25acp.
It can make painful recoil.

Have you looked at the Lothar Walther web site? It lists a "Pistol" Barrel blank in .251 Groove Diameter 605mm long (23.6") which would make a Dandy rifle Barrel.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Bigslug]

I think the way we'd want to do this for broader-based appeal would be to invent the ".25 Long" as suggested back on post #9. Increase the case body diameter slightly to something that can use a .257" bullet, and set the length so it will fit in a .22 WMR magazine well when loaded with a heavy-for-the-size projectile. . .maybe 70-90 grains? You'd have something running right around speed of sound methinks, with a lot more penetration capability than .22LR.

[Chev. William]

Bigslug



The ".25-10 Halsted" is a CF Cartridge designed to be used in a worn out ".25 Stevens RF" Barrel; so yes it is possible to make a Cartridge to take .257" bullets in a Lengthened ".25ACP" design case.

The .25-10 Halsted uses a swaged down .22 hornet case as its Basic start. It is .278" body diameter by 1.125" case length is formed to take .257" diameter Bullets in the 60 to 70 grain weight range.

Possibly it would be practical to use a case length around the same as a ".22 WMR RF cartridge and load it to the same Over All Length.

There is a proposed wildcat, the .25 Magnum Auto Colt Pistol of 1.024" to 1.056" case length made from a swaged down 5.7x28mm case. It has a Body diameter of .278", the same as .25ACP and .25Stevens Long RF cartridges. It also is developed to use the .251" diameter Bullets like the .25ACP.
Swaged down .257" diameter Jacketed bullets are also usable (I have swaged down Hornady #2510 60 grain RFN bullets successfully for use in this wildcat and also in its shorter sibling, the ,25 Auto Long Rifle of .960" case length).

It would mean finding a Magazine to hold the Larger diameter Cartridge with the internal length to take the "WMR" length cartridge. Bullets of 70-90 grains are available inn .257" nominal Diameter as that Rifle Caliber is still Popular. I am presently preparing to use some Gas check fitted 70-73 grain Cast Led bullets Sized to .252" to see how they will Preform in my .25 Stevens Barrels. I also have a 'Bastardized' Barrel that is .257 Groove Diameter partially turned to fit a Stevens 'Favorite' Action. That Experiment is planned 'down the road' a time yet.

As a "popular" possibility it does have an appeal as Barrel Blanks and Liners are available more generally in .250 Bore/.257 Groove dimensions, and I am sure there are More Popular CF Actions that can be converted with a Barrel Change IF suitable Magazines can be identified.

Perhaps you would Take on the task of Researching Magazines and Actions that are Suitable for use in such Conversions?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

No broadhead or stone arrowhead I've ever seen was "shaft diameter." They are always....always larger. Look at a Clovis point. Shaft diameter points were not used for larger game.

The point about trying to compare a 25 ACP round to an arrowhead is not relevant for that reason. The arrowhead always opens a larger wound channel. No comparison will make a 25 ACP anything but a very, very slow killer of deer sized game with anything but a behind the ear shot, or a much chancier spinal shot, which shouldn't be attempted anyway. If a round won't kill quickly with a higher percentage chest cavity shot, which is a much larger target to hit that moves less than a head, it shouldn't be used for game hunting.

In a "Survival " situation, "Any Kill" is better than "No Kill" even if the "Kill" takes time and tracking to follow up on. For Survival, gaining Food is the Important Point.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Rifle Barrels are Available used!
I obtained both a Stevens ".25 R.F." and a Remington ".25-10 R.F." barrels from Ebay Auctions for reasonable costs.
The Remington barrel is for a #4 RB action and has a 'Ghost of Rifling' remaining in a Clean Bore without pits.
The Stevens barrel is still 'dirty' but shows reasonable rifling in a lightly pitted bore, good for a bore that saw BP use for a Hundred plus years.

Both are about 22 inches overall Muzzle to Breech Face length.
Both will chamber .25ACP cartridges, but the long for cartridge chamber will reduce overall accuracy.
The Remington could be set back and tenon turned to fit another action with improved accuracy;but that would reduce its antique value.
The Stevens barrel Tenon could also be turned to fit another action.

Chev. William

[Alferd Packer]

I reload .25 acp and cast bullets for it. Liken to a reloadable .22 Rimfire. Its fun and no harder to reload than any other except it is very economical with lead and powder. Detractors sound a bit silly. I also load and cast for .32 pistol thru 45-70 rifle. Its all good.

[Chev. William]

I reload .25 acp and cast bullets for it. Liken to a reloadable .22 Rimfire. Its fun and no harder to reload than any other except it is very economical with lead and powder. Detractors sound a bit silly. I also load and cast for .32 pistol thru 45-70 rifle. Its all good.

Ah, You too Enjoy 'frugal Fun' pastimes!
Chev. William