Please Help.....Failing miseraably.....!

[git_dr1]

I am trying to paper patch for the 7.62x54r and not having much luck at all.
Accuracy is nonexistent and I am getting extreme leading in the last 4 inches of the barrel.

The barrels bore slugs at .303 and the groove slugs at .3135

The bullet is a Lee 312 sized down to .3045, paper patched with 2 wraps of notebook paper, and then sized to .315 it that weighs in at 170 gr.

I started with 39 gr of IMR 3031


Thanks in advance for any input.

I should add this rifle shoots great with the same bullet gas checked with 13 gr red dot behind it.
It also shoots great with privi jacketed.

git_dr1

[amosfella]

May need to roughen the bullet some to help the paper hold better...

[Goatwhiskers]

Curious how thick your paper is and how much you have to size down after wrapping. I had a .30 cal rifle that I really had to squeeze the wrapped boolit thru my .310 sizer, no accuracy at all. Don't recall the exact dimensions right now but for sure my core wasn't right. Apparently a little squeeze is OK, what I was doing was not, it made the paper look thin on the boolit. Never did get back to that project. More experienced folks will be along shortly, just don't give up, when you hit the right combo you'll be pleasantly surprised. GW

[git_dr1]

The paper mics at .003 and the bullet mics at .318 before final sizing.

[docone31]

I like patching the Mosin. Even with a counter bore, it is very accurate patched. I use a cigarette roller, with the patches soaking wet. I use the mold you express, and size down to .309. I then wrap twice with lined notebook paper. When dry, I size them to .317, or leave the patched casting alone as it is around there anyway. I use Auto Wax to lube the casting prior to patching. I use start load data for jacketeds with 4895. No crimp. I use the Lee FCD die. Give it time and do not give up. They are great shooters patched.

[303Guy]

Does the boolit engage the rifling leade on chambering? Can you seat an unsized patched boolit in an unsized case neck?

My successes involved patched boolits large enough to seat firmly in unsized cases and were long enough to engage the rifling leade.

[CJR]

Some comments, questions, and suggestions;
1. Leading near the muzzle indicates the PP is stripping in the barrel. Are you wet-patching or dry -patching? Wet PP hold better on the CB due to a shrinKage fit.
2. After you final size the PPCB, remove the PP and mike the CB to make sure you are not resizing the CB smaller. CB smaller than bore diameter wobble on their way to the muzzle and are inaccurate. If the CB is smaller in diameter from its initial sizing; find a thinner paper.
3. How are you determining where to locate the PP? If your chamber has a forcing cone, the PP should be in contact with the forcing cone when the round is chambered. Ideally, the base of the PPCB should be at the start of the neck.
4. What's your PPCB runout after reloading the round? Likewise, chamber a PPCB round and then extract the loaded round and check its runout. Sometimes chambering will cause bullet runout.
5. You may want to try some progressive burning powders,i.e. W748,W760(H414) etc., because they start the PPCB slower initially and prevent CB deformation, but the average pressure is higher so the final velocity is higher.

Hope this helps! Hang in there, you will succeed. It's just a matter of time and effort.

Best regards,

CJR

[303Guy]

Are you lubing the patched boolit? I lube mine by rolling them on the lube pad (with STP on it). This allows seating in the neck and makes a big difference in the bore. I did comparative tests but I can't quite remember what the un-lubed patches were doing but they were failing in some way. I used quite a soft alloy which grips the patch. A harder alloy would slip in the patch leaving crinkle impressions on the boolit.

[Dan Cash]

The only thing I have to add is try a pad of tracing paper about .002 thick and disregard the sizing after patching. I think it was pdawg shooter who warned me that such sizing would make the core out of balance as lead would squeeze into the gap where the patch ends don't quite meet. I broke some patches down and he was right. I started shooting my bullets without final sizing and had super success with my .30-40 and a couple .30-30s. The casting is sized to .3035-.304 and given 2 wraps of said tracing paper giving a finished product that is .312 more or less. The patches are veery durable and produce excellent results.

[hardy]

Hi git,no crimp required with sufficient neck tension,leave the case flare intact,helps to center the boolit.Shoot,em unsized,lightly lubed,use a pinch of Dacron over the powder and drop down on the charge then work up.I find 28 grains of 4895 to be a good starting point.Many variables with paper patching try,em and you,ll get there and remember " if it was easy then anyone could do it "Good Luck and keep us informed. Cheers, Mike..

[303Guy]

... try a pad of tracing paper about .002 thick and disregard the sizing after patching.

I don't like sizing after patching either but then it's easy for me to speak, I can make a new mold to my required size. I dropped in at a stationary store near me and found some tracing paper at .0026". That's a lot thinner than the .004 tracing paper I found previously. Does the thinner paper require any special treatment to bond itself?

[mongoosesnipe]

Your core is too small after the second sizing when patching for smokeless powder the bullet needs to be at least .001 over your bore diameter, get some onion skin paper preferable with a little cotton in it but regular will suffice if you can't find any you can use regular tracing paper for a thinner patch so you don't have to size after wrapping the .3045 is about ideal so you don't want to size after patching

[git_dr1]

Thanks for everyone's input.

I haven't had time yet to try any suggestions but I wanted to answer a few of your questions.

CJR,

- I am wet patching.
- The patch starts above the ogave.

Forgive my ignorance but I don't understand what you are referring to in checking the bullet runout.

- I do lube with JPW, however I just happen to think, does the JPW need to set to allow the volatiles to evaporate before seating?

When I seat the ppcb, I put the ppcb into an unsized case and chamber. I use this to set the depth of seating die.

303Guy,
I haven't tried anything with an unsized bullet yet.

You guys have given me plenty of avenues to explore and I appreciate everyone's input.
Where would one find onion paper? I have heard of it but never had any experience with it.

Again, thanks for everyone input. Now, its time for some work with chore boy and to try again.

git_dr1

[Dan Cash]

.........Where would one find onion paper? I have heard of it but never had any experience with it.........................................

Onion skin paper is a thin, nearly transparent paper for typewriter copies or tracings. These days, it is more a generic term than a specific for paper. I have the following papers which were purchased from Wal-Mart and an independent drug store that work equally well: Meade Academie tracing paper, medium wt. .002 thick; Studio 71 tracing pad, 25lb, Darice Inc., .002 thick, 100 sheets for $7.49; Artist Tracing paper by Pacon Corp, standard wt (40g/sq meter), .002 thick.

These papers patch well either dry or wet though I prefer wet. I have never gotten the notebook paper or green bar paper to perform though some have tremendous success with it. I carry cartridges patched with these papers in a cartridge belt for use in an 1895 Winchester and Marlin leveraction rifles. The patches stand up with out tearing or deterioration.

[CJR]

git dr1,

Bullets can be seated into a case so that the bullet tip is off to one side;i.e. bullet runout. It has been well documented in the past that as the amount of bullet "runout" increases, the accuracy decreases. Whether you're shooting jacketed or PPCB the centerline of the bullet must be aligned with the centerline of the barrel bore for top accuracy.

Also if you've just started shooting PP, the rifle bore may not have cleaned up enough yet. More barrel cleaning with Kroil and more PP shooting will cure a fouled barrel. When properly cleaned, a dry brushed barrel will look like a mirror.

Finally, enjoy the journey!

I would think your technique to place the PP in contact with the chamber's forcing cone should work.

Best regards,

CJR

[303Guy]

Bullets can be seated into a case so that the bullet tip is off to one side;i.e. bullet runout.

Seating in an unsized case so the boolit can just be pushed in by hand helps eliminate runout. Mine go in halfway then I finish seating in the press - there is not compression of the core and no expansion of the neck, just a little paper compression but I use printer paper or thinner notepad paper. I relube the patch (and case) after seating so the forward patch has more lube.

I'd say the JPW must dry before seating the PPCB.

Some folks seat their PPCB's long enough so that final seating is achieved on closing the bolt. This also happens to align the boolit with the bore centreline.

You might try reducing the loads to the point where the patch survives the trip down the bore. You will need to increase the load as the bore polishes up. I sped up the process with a few fire-lap rounds. I did a polishing trick using Auto-Sol metal polish in which I loaded dry cast boolits then smeared the boolits liberally with the stuff, chambered them and fired. Even the brass came out polished! Light loads of course. Do not let the polish dry on the boolit. Smear, load and shoot. Make sure there is plenty on the boolit nose in front of the ogive. But if not comfortable then don't.

[marvelshooter]

I am also "failing miserably" at my first attempt at paper patching and have a few questions. Is there a point where a barrel is in too poor of condition to successfully shoot PP boolits? Does the paper have to be far enough forward on the nose of the boolit to be trapped or pinched between the boolit and the bore? I have a well worn .38-55 and I can fit a .384 boolit in a fired case. I sized a few boolits to .375 and put 2 wraps of .002 airmail paper giving me .383 over the paper. I lubed them with car wax and loaded them over a full case of Trail Boss. The first one hit sideways at 30 yards and I didn't see the point in firing the rest. Thanks and I hope the OP doesn't mind the thread hijack.

[mongoosesnipe]

I am also "failing miserably" at my first attempt at paper patching and have a few questions. Is there a point where a barrel is in too poor of condition to successfully shoot PP boolits? Does the paper have to be far enough forward on the nose of the boolit to be trapped or pinched between the boolit and the bore? I have a well worn .38-55 and I can fit a .384 boolit in a fired case. I sized a few boolits to .375 and put 2 wraps of .002 airmail paper giving me .383 over the paper. I lubed them with car wax and loaded them over a full case of Trail Boss. The first one hit sideways at 30 yards and I didn't see the point in firing the rest. Thanks and I hope the OP doesn't mind the thread hijack.

when patching smokeless your bullets need to be a little larger than the bore you should not be able to push the unpached bullet down the barrel without good rifling contact, smokeless powder doesn't bump bullets like black .... i recommend reading the paper jacket

[303Guy]

Is there a point where a barrel is in too poor of condition to successfully shoot PP boolits?

No.

If you saw what the bore of my pig gun looked like you would have thought I was crazy to try salvage it and you would have been right. I was crazy and I did salvage it. Think in terms of a sewer pipe. This bore has a layer of rust scale the full length. Removing the scale left an oversize rocky riverbed of a bore. But it did shoot and surprisingly well too. I wouldn't enter it in a bench rest competition but it will take a pig at pig ranges in the bush. It did take two turkey in the development stages. I'll see if I can find a photo of the bore.

[git_dr1]

You might try reducing the loads to the point where the patch survives the trip down the bore. You will need to increase the load as the bore polishes up. I sped up the process with a few fire-lap rounds. I did a polishing trick using Auto-Sol metal polish in which I loaded dry cast boolits then smeared the boolits liberally with the stuff, chambered them and fired. Even the brass came out polished! Light loads of course. Do not let the polish dry on the boolit. Smear, load and shoot. Make sure there is plenty on the boolit nose in front of the ogive. But if not comfortable then don't.

After spending a little time on yesterday I believe this is where I am at. I guess the bore is in worse shape than I had originally thought. There is plenty of rifling but the grooves definitely need some polishing. It is obvious that the paper is not surviving the trip.

I think I'll load up some light loads with plenty of JPW to try first. I have read about fire lapping but think I'll save that for a last resort.

Also, I did pick up some tracing paper and I am interested in seeing the differences between the papers but first I have to get the bore cleaned up.

Thanks and I hope the OP doesn't mind the thread hijack.

Marvelshooter, not a problem.

Again, thanks for everyones input.

git_dr1