A good self defense load for the 38 special.

[tazman]

I have been working with some new powders and boolits recently and getting some very good results. One of the things I found was that my revolver shoots the Lyman 358432 wadcutter very well. Another was that this boolit seats no deeper into the case than the 358477 or the 358311 when crimped in the standard crimp groove.
Attachment 113181
Notice the location of the crimp groove in each of these boolits. They are the same height from the table. The left boolit is the 358477. The center is the 358432. The right is the 358311.

Today I ran all three of these over my chronograph loaded with 5.0 grains of CFE pistol powder and boy did I get a surprise. The 358311 averaged 911fps. The 358477 averaged 945fps. The 358432 averaged 958fps. Seems the CFE pistol powder gives a bit extra velocity for a given boolit weight in several calibers. The data on the Hodgdon site is correct in this regard.

The accuracy with the 358432 was excellent. This group was shot at 45 feet, offhand. There are 14 rounds in that target(7 shot cylinder).
Attachment 113182

Given the accuracy, the flat nose, and the fairly high velocity for a 38 special, I think this would make a great self defense load.
Attachment 113183
What do you think? Opinions welcome.

[Heavy lead]

Well I for one wouldn't want to be standing 15 yards from you and take those 14 rounds. Nice group, I use the 358432 as well and like it a lot. I don't tumble lube, but use BAC in just the lower groove, all my .38's like it.
I cannot imagine why it wouldn't make a fine defense load.

[smkummer]

I used to load Lyman's 358477 with unique and getting close to the same velocity you are getting but now its considered a plus P load. It was my first 38/.357 bullet mold and served well in both 38 and .357 for 15 years until I went to a 6 cavity Lee 158 SWC-TL. Any of those bullets at that velocity is a serious self defense load as penetration should easily exceed 11 inches of gelatin. My preference would be for the SWC, WC and then RN last but its probably a moot point. If that powder produces that performance at standard pressures, that's even better. It might be a bit too much recoil in alloy 2" revolvers with recoil sensitive shooters but I would carry it for sure.

[TCFAN]

What was the barrel length. I have all three of the molds that you used. I am looking for a carry load that will shoot to the fixed sights of a Ruger SP101 3 inch.I have not used the CFE pistol powder,but I will have to give it a try......Terry

[tazman]

What was the barrel length. I have all three of the molds that you used. I am looking for a carry load that will shoot to the fixed sights of a Ruger SP101 3 inch.I have not used the CFE pistol powder,but I will have to give it a try......Terry

The CFE pistol is a new powder just out in the last couple of months from Hodgdon. I just got lucky and ran across some. My barrel length is 6 inches. Hodgdon test barrel was 7.7 inches.
With my pistol the 358311 shoots just above the center of that target. The 358477 shoots to the center. The 358432 shoots slightly lower due to boolit weight differences.

[TCFAN]

Thanks. I have seen the CFE pistol in a couple of local gun shops but never considered it for the 38 special.........Terry

[Bzcraig]

What was the barrel length. I have all three of the molds that you used. I am looking for a carry load that will shoot to the fixed sights of a Ruger SP101 3 inch.I have not used the CFE pistol powder,but I will have to give it a try......Terry

I recently got a NOE 360 180 loaded some in my GP100 3" in 38 cases using 7.4grn of 4227. The load shot to POA from 7-15yds. I will continue working up this load, it shot well and had little felt recoil. I got the data from an old Lyman manual I found on Castpics. Don't have a chrono, that will be coming soon.

[TCFAN]

I recently got a NOE 360 180 loaded some in my GP100 3" in 38 cases using 7.4grn of 4227. The load shot to POA from 7-15yds. I will continue working up this load, it shot well and had little felt recoil. I got the data from an old Lyman manual I found on Castpics. Don't have a chrono, that will be coming soon.

I have that mold in a HP as well as solid. If I have some boolits cast I will give that load a try tomorrow and run it over my chronograph from my Sp101 and let you know what I get.....Terry

[Bzcraig]

I have that mold in a HP as well as solid. If I have some boolits cast I will give that load a try tomorrow and run it over my chronograph from my Sp101 and let you know what I get.....Terry

Thank you very much Terry!

[Paul Tummers]

Think, those wadcutters with their flying brick ballistic coefficient will do a very good job upon target, especially when you use a somewhat softer alloy for a well-greased bullet.

[gwpercle]

I did some quick testing with a model 64 S&W, 38 special and standard charge type loads, with every 38 cal mould I have. The 358432 162 grain boolit seems to group best. I'm going back to the range and going to do more shooting to confirm. Right now I have those loads in my revolver.
Starting to like this design a lot. It outshot the 358477, which surprised me.
Gary...a 358432 fan also.

[Char-Gar]

I am a fan of the 38 Special. Here is what I use as a social load. 225 grain wadcutter going 850 fps. It is a +P load and shoots high, but across the room it makes no difference.

I keep my 4" Smith and Wesson Heavy Duty (N frame) loaded with these. I will shoot them in a steel K frame, but never in a J frame either steel or alloy. I will also shoot them in my Colt Official Police, but never in the smaller Colt I frames of any metal.

Ed Harris is an advocate for the full power wadcutter (38 Special) for social purposes. His choice is a SAECO DE WC over 3.5/Bulleye.

[propwashp47]

great load and nice shooting tazman .wow char-gar who makes that boolit or mold in the pick?

[TCFAN]

I recently got a NOE 360 180 loaded some in my GP100 3" in 38 cases using 7.4grn of 4227. The load shot to POA from 7-15yds. I will continue working up this load, it shot well and had little felt recoil. I got the data from an old Lyman manual I found on Castpics. Don't have a chrono, that will be coming soon.

I tried this load today.Using mixed 38 special cases with a NOE 360180 solid. Weight with my WW is 183gr.I loaded 6 cases with 7.4gr of IMR4227. Used a FED. small pistol primer.My gun is a Ruger SP101 with a 3 inch barrel. 7.4 gave me a average velocity of 578fps.
I then tried 8.4 and got 614fps. average.
I then tried 9.0 and got 714 average.
These 3 loads are very pleasant shooting as to recoil and they all shot to the fixed sights on my gun but I believe there are better powders than 4227 for the 38 special.

As soon as I can get some of the CFE pistol I want to try that with several different boolits.....Terry

[MtGun44]

Certainly very accurate, and I wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of one.

Here is my choice:



Penetration in wet phone books is right at 1/2 of what you get in ballistic gel, and I measured to the
base, so 4 1/4" + about 3/4" = 5" x 2 =10" penetration in ballistic gel. Not up to FBI specs, but
I'm OK with it. This load is also very accurate and shoots to fixed sights of the 342.

Bill

[tazman]

Certainly very accurate, and I wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of one.

Here is my choice:



Penetration in wet phone books is right at 1/2 of what you get in ballistic gel, and I measured to the
base, so 4 1/4" + about 3/4" = 5" x 2 =10" penetration in ballistic gel. Not up to FBI specs, but
I'm OK with it. This load is also very accurate and shoots to fixed sights of the 342.

Bill

I wouldn't want to be in front of that one either. How hard are those?
I am working on a hollow point for my 9mm and need some idea where the hardness needs to be.

[Bzcraig]

I tried this load today.Using mixed 38 special cases with a NOE 360180 solid. Weight with my WW is 183gr.I loaded 6 cases with 7.4gr of IMR4227. Used a FED. small pistol primer.My gun is a Ruger SP101 with a 3 inch barrel. 7.4 gave me a average velocity of 578fps.
I then tried 8.4 and got 614fps. average.
I then tried 9.0 and got 714 average.
These 3 loads are very pleasant shooting as to recoil and they all shot to the fixed sights on my gun but I believe there are better powders than 4227 for the 38 special.

As soon as I can get some of the CFE pistol I want to try that with several different boolits.....Terry

Here are the loads from Lyman's 44th 1967 for 195gr 358430 using #2 alloy.
Bullseye start 2.0 @ 530 Max 2.7 @ 658
Unique start 3.0 @ 572 Max 4.1 @ 772
2400 start 8.0 @ 734 Max 9.5 @ 893
4227 start 7.0 @ 494 Max 9.5 @ 748
SR7625 start 3.0 @ 478 Max 3.8 @ 675
SR4756 start 4.0 @ 506 Max 5.4 @ 810

Accuracy load
Unique 3.6 @ 671

Factory duplication load
Unique 3.8 @ 703

Please verify data before using

[dubber123]

I believe Bill uses 50/50 WW-Pb, which is the same alloy I use for HP's. My snubbie load looks like it performs similarly to his.

[tazman]

I believe Bill uses 50/50 WW-Pb, which is the same alloy I use for HP's. My snubbie load looks like it performs similarly to his.

Thanks. That gives me a place to start.

[salvadore]

The hollow point is a 358156 cast soft (?) shot from my Colt Cobra into gallon jugs of water. Using a load of 4grs of BE, Venturino claims it not a +P load. The wadcutter is a modern bond mold.