The outlaw Josie Wales

[MBTcustom]

The comment that "the Revolution was won with guerilla tactics and sniper rifles" grabbed my attention.

I have to say that this shows a substantial lack of study of the history of the American Revolution. While
the first few battles were fought largely that way, we rapidly adopted the normal army methods and
weapons (muskets) because they were most effective on the battlefield. We still had some militia
with rifles, but at many battles the militia were the weak point and the British regulars knew this and
would fire their first volley and do a bayonet charge towards the militia, knowing that the militia did
not have bayonets, and many had slow-to-load rifles, not the rapid firing muskets. Add in the poor
training of the militias and they would almost always break and run, giving the British the ability
to break through American lines and flank our regulars.

Gradually, the militias were converted to muskets, and became better trained. There is no question that
riflemen and shooting individual officers was an American tactic that was bitterly complained about
by the British officer corps, but we were fighting for our lives and country and not too interested in
their 'sporting rules for European style warfare' - which was at least partly due to the great deal
of intermarriage in the ruling classes, so killing one's cousin just because there was a disagreement
between two kings "just wasn't done". Frankly, we thought it was a great idea, and used the idea
to advantage in a number of battles.

By the time we were really winning, we had pretty much a normal regular army, with all the things
that this brings - muskets, cannon, bayonet charges, and standard tactics of the day of shooting
in ranks. Yes, some battles were turned by careful application of rifle fire, no doubt about it,
but the extreme slowness of firing with rifles of the day left them in the dust most of the time.

I have to sincerely disagree with the statement "the Revolution was won with guerilla tactics and sniper rifles"
beyond the first battles like Lexington and Concord. Perhaps these very widely reported opening engagements
are so strong in the popular media that these desperation tactics are thought to have applied across the whole
war, but that is quite far from historically correct.

Bill

Interesting. You read about history. LOL! Comes across a little different that way.
I'm no history expert, but that mirrors my understanding.

I really think that's part of the reason the Civil War was so bloody. America was on the cusp of the industrial revolution (at least the groundwork was being laid) and the weaponry had overtaken the battle tactics. Soldiers were still lining up in firing formation with bayonets fixed, but the weapons were much more accurate and devastating than they were just a few years before. Every engagement was a slaughter on both sides.

[TXGunNut]

The revolvers he used in that movie are in the museum at Cody,WY. At least they were the last time I was there.

I didn't see them there in 2007, hope to make another trip soon. I did see a rifle supposedly owned by the man who inspired the movie "Jeremiah Johnson". Last I heard they can keep less than half of their firearms on display but rumor has it it's possible to see the guns in the back rooms if you know who to ask. A friend donated/loaned a few guns awhile back and he got to spend some time in what he called the "petting zoo" with cotton gloves and a curator.

[steamerjames]

My great grandfather was born in Mo in 1850 or so. he used to tell my grandmother(born in 1886) the following story: He was coming home on a horse and what does he see ahead of him but a column of Bloody bill Anderson's men. Said all he could do was to keep riding by them as he passed them the last man shot his hat off for fun.

[waksupi]

I didn't see them there in 2007, hope to make another trip soon. I did see a rifle supposedly owned by the man who inspired the movie "Jeremiah Johnson". Last I heard they can keep less than half of their firearms on display but rumor has it it's possible to see the guns in the back rooms if you know who to ask. A friend donated/loaned a few guns awhile back and he got to spend some time in what he called the "petting zoo" with cotton gloves and a curator.

One of the better short biogaphies has been written by a young man by the name of Skyler Gabel:

Skyler Gabel
Cody
8th Grade

“Liver Eating” Johnston

Liver Eating Johnson was a violent, drunk, mountain of a man who didn’t have a very high reputation but was by no doubt the most fearless fighter and he became a legend. Johnston was built like a brick wall with a towering height over six feet tall and weighing 280 pounds none of which was fat.
There are not very many books written on “Liver Eating” Johnson. There was the fictional movie Jeremiah Johnson and then the fictional Crow Killer: The Saga of Liver Eating Johnson by Raymond Thorpe and Richard Bunker. Finally, I found a knowledgeable researched source that was just published in 2008: The Avenging Fury of the Plains by Dennis John Mclelland Ed.D.
Liver Eating Johnson’s real name was John Garrison Johnston. Johnston was born in Little York, New Jersey in July of 1824 to Isaac and Eliza Garrison. He had 5 sisters and may have also had a brother who died in Virginia during the Civil War. Of Irish or Scottish descent, Johnston’s father was an alcoholic and nearly worked young Johnston to death. The brutality of his father when Johnston was young and helpless may have had a part in making him the adult capable of doing almost any violent act that he became. The apparent rage inside him most of the time shows that his father also toughened him. Isaac would send his son to farms to work off his own debt. Johnston tired of this treatment and began working on a coastal schooner hunting whales. He was then at sea for 12 or 13 years. This is where he developed his powerful frame.
The high sea became boring for Johnston so he enlisted in the U.S. Navy during the Mexican War. It is not known how long Johnston served as a sailor but was obviously not very long because of his temper. Johnston was an impulsive man with a lack of self-control and a very hot temper. When the Lieutenant in charge struck one of his comrades with a sword, Johnston, in a fit of rage, struck him in the neck, which laid him out senseless on the deck of the ship. When the Lieutenant came to, he didn’t know whether lightning or a spar had hit him, but he thought it was Johnston. Because of being suspected of striking a superior officer, he didn’t get any shore leave for 30 days. When he finally was allowed to go to ashore, he never came back and ventured off into the unknown west.
The events described above were taking place when, in the movie Jeremiah Johnson and in the book by Thorpe and Bunker, Johnston’s squaw the Swan and Johnston’s son were supposedly being killed by the Crow. This proves the story was false. After this, came the myth that Johnston sought revenge and went on a rampage against the Crow. Supposedly, this made a Crow chief mad, so he sent 20 of his best warriors after Johnston one at a time. Johnston, they said, killed them all. Johnston’s military record also proves there was no Crow Vendetta against him for that reason. Johnston was actually friends with the Crow most of the time, so it was all a big tall tale. The “Crow Chief” that supposedly induced 20 warriors after Johnston wasn’t even Crow.
Johnston changed his name to Johnston from Garrison because he was now a deserter on the run and would be hung if caught. Johnston then joined the gold rush. He mined in California then (dates unknown) moved east and ended up in Colorado. He later moved up through Wyoming and into southern Montana where he mined, hunted, trapped, wolfed, bootlegged, peddled whiskey, cut wood and worked as a scout for General Miles Nelson and many others. But mainly he fought Indians. This is where he met his friend and partner J.X. Beidler. The two men had two things in common: whiskey and violence. Johnston was with Beidler on and off until he retired. Johnston like his father was an alcoholic despite the other stories from Thorpe and Bunker’s book. It was now when Johnston’s legend began to build.
Johnston was a legend in and after his time, which resulted in many “fairy tales”. Of the many things Johnston did, his nickname proved a lie for he never consumed a human liver. He was tagged with his false name during a battle with the Sioux in 1868. Some claim the battle was in 1869 or 1870, but Johnston himself stated it was in 1868. Johnston and 15 other woodcutters were attacked by the Sioux as they were cutting wood to fuel steamboats on Sioux land. At the end of the battle Johnston stabbed a warrior in the side. When he withdrew his knife, there was a bit of liver remaining on the blade. As a joke Johnston turned to his friends, held up his knife, and then asked if they “wanted a chaw”.
In the winter of 1863 Johnston joined the 1st Division 2nd Colorado Calvary 4th Brigade H Company as a Private/Scout in the Civil War. He lied about his age and said he was 33 when he was really 39. Johnston deserted only 5 days after he enlisted. It is suspected although uncertain that the reason he deserted was to go spend all the money he had been paid on whiskey. Johnston eventually came back to find the Second Colorado Calvary just staying at the fort awaiting orders. Later Johnston was reassigned to the 2nd regiment. In October of 1864 Johnston was shot in the leg and shoulder in the battles of Westport and Newtonia in Missouri. Johnston fought in the war until he was discharged on September 23, 1865.
Johnston returned to Montana territory not sure of anything that lay ahead. He ended up going back to the gold fields and fighting Indians. When he left the gold fields, Johnston spent all the money he owned on whiskey in Fort Benton. After he ran out of money to fuel his drunk, he went back to work as a teamster delivering supplies to miners. Johnston then met up with his old partner J.X. Beidler. Johnston and Beidler set up camp and wood hawked on the Missouri river right in the middle of Sioux land. Wood hawking was dangerous anyways but right in the middle of Sioux land it was almost suicide. They were attacked on a regular basis and soon decided to take a break. Beidler went his own way and Johnston went out alone hunting and trapping for awhile. Johnston was one of a kind to still be hunting and trapping into his 60s. Eventually, Johnston and Beidler were back to their wood hawking camp. Johnston was often seen with Indian skulls on stakes next to the river trying to sell the body parts to tourists passing on the steamboats. Being a wood hawk meant being fearless. In the summer of 68 seven woodcutters were killed.
Johnston returned again to the wilderness to trap and hunt. Sioux would steal Johnston’s beaver traps and pelt, which angered Johnston so he would set up traps for them and outsmart them. Sometimes he would make a tent and make it look like he had left quickly and leave a piece of poisoned meat for the Indians to eat. Once when three Sioux waited inside Johnston’s cabin for his return, he outsmarted them by climbing in a pre-dug tunnel and shooting one of the Indians through the floorboards. Johnston continued this lifestyle for years participating in every big fight there was. Johnston also served as a scout for General Miles several different times participating in catching Chief Joseph and fighting in many more battles. But Johnston, bored with this life, looked for different work.
In 1868 Johnston and J.X. Beidler got together and peddled bootlegged whiskey to Indians until about 1873. There was a territory called Whoop Up Territory, which was one of the most dangerous places that rarely a white man dared to go. Johnston didn’t care. Since the Indians knew him as a bad spirit, he was allowed a free ride across some of the most dangerous hostile lands in the west. During this time Johnston was peddling whiskey under the cover of nightfall and hiding the whiskey during the day. After Johnston now in his 50s gave up the dangerous game of bootlegging whiskey, he guided some trips into the mountains in south central and southeastern Montana since he knew the area better than any man alive. After these trips he went back to scouting for General Miles and many others. In the years to follow Johnston scouts, hunts, traps, and runs a stagecoach line on and off. He became a lawman in Coulson, Montana (now known as Billings) and then joined a Wild West show, which also lead to a dead end so Johnston returned and resumed his job as a lawman in Coulson. He decided he didn’t want to work anymore and was tired of the social life so built a cabin in the mountains where he could live the rest of his life. Johnston built that cabin in Red Lodge where he hoped to never work again. But later he hired on as Sheriff until, having much trouble from his shoulder wound obtained in the civil war, he retired at the age of 70.
Johnston went on one more trip to Tombstone, Arizona. He returned to Red Lodge and almost overnight they say got old. In the last year of his life, 1899, Johnston moved to a veteran’s hospital in Los Angeles, California where he died on January 21, 1900.
Johnston’s body was buried in California for years but with much negotiating and dispute it was moved to Old Trail Town in Cody, WY. Cody is near some of Johnston’s favorite stomping grounds being only 65 miles from Red Lodge, MT. Between Red Lodge and Cody was one of Johnston’s favorite mountain ranges, the Beartooths, where some backwoodsmen today claim to notice the smell of pipe tobacco drifting into camp and they then report seeing the ghostly figure of Johnston leading a pack string down an ancient trail smoking a pipe in the moonlight.

[MBTcustom]

Wow waksupi.
What a riveting story. Sometimes the truth is stranger than fiction.

[doc1876]

yes, waksupi, that was good reading. I have seen most of this somewhere before, but it was nice of this young man to put it all together.
thanks

[MtGun44]

I agree, goodsteel, the move to the rifled musket meant that you still had the rapid loading
of the musket, but the accuracy was about 3-6" at 100 yds. Suddenly, if you aimed well, there
was no reason to miss a standing man at 100 yds. This was devastating against a line of
troops, and the .58 cal 500+ gr soft lead Minie balls were not going to stop in one man, so
I'm sure multiple woundings happened often.
So the deadliness of the ordinary soldier's weapon took a huge jump, but tactics changed little and
medical care was still very primitive. One final point - EVERYONE THAT WAS SHOT WAS AN
AMERICAN - so the casualties were doubled.

One of the reasons that I like to collect and shoot milsurps is to understand what the real capabilities
were for the various soldiers of different periods. Understanding military tech is crucial to understanding
the real history of warfare. WHY they did some particular battle in a particular way often hinges on what
the weaponry could and could not do.

The border guerillas with their many revolvers were a fairly unique form of shock troops,
enabled by the confluence of young men that were exceptional horsemen, and good with
a pistol, plus the new 6 shot revolvers. Carrying many of them meant one man may have
the firepower of a large portion of a company, at least at short range and for a few minutes.
So now, the guerilla raid was technologically possible, and these troops took advantage of
this new tactic.

Bill

[MtGun44]

Waksupi -

Thanks for the interesting info on Johston. I had heard the name and some legends thrown
into various other stories, but never knew how much was fable and how much was fact,
until now.

Bill

[bob208]

the first pistol he uses. the one right after the raid on his farm. was a 1860 colt converted to cartage as in 72.

[doc1876]

they were all converted, as Hollywood just can't trust actors to load a muzzle loader. Check out the sharps in the "Missouri boat ride" scene, a 1874, not a '59. the walkers were converted, and somewhere on the net is a pic of them and a caption that they were used in True Grit also.

[MBTcustom]

they were all converted, as Hollywood just can't trust actors to load a muzzle loader. Check out the sharps in the "Missouri boat ride" scene, a 1874, not a '59. the walkers were converted, and somewhere on the net is a pic of them and a caption that they were used in True Grit also.

I'll be doggon.
I caught the 1860 typo when I was about 15 years old. Always bugged me.
But I never picked up on the fact that all of his guns were out of time.
Can you imagine the laughs if they made a movie about D-Day and the hero was using an AR-15? LOL!

[Elkins45]

I have to sincerely disagree with the statement "the Revolution was won with guerilla tactics and sniper rifles"
beyond the first battles like Lexington and Concord. Perhaps these very widely reported opening engagements
are so strong in the popular media that these desperation tactics are thought to have applied across the whole
war, but that is quite far from historically correct.

Bill

Although you make several valid points I will nonetheless stand by my statement, and for this reason: without the successes these tactics provided in the early phases of the war there would have been no later battles. The Revolution would have been just another failed coup we read about in our English history books.

[MtGun44]

Interesting point, and certainly valid - but "won with. . . ." Nah, have to disagree.

"Used to great effectiveness when we had to . . ." or "Managed to start a revolution with . . ."
sure. We won it with pretty much conventional military tactics, and by the grace of
the Compte de Grasse who blocked the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay so that the
British fleet could not relieve Cornwallis where we had trapped him on the Yorktown
peninsula. We hammered them day and night with artillery and they ran out of everything.
Some sniping did occur there to keep their heads down, so it sure played a part.

How many Navies have a ship named for a leading Admiral in a fleet in another country?
We had the DD974, USS Compte de Grasse.

Bill

[Col4570]

Liver Eating Johnson,Waksupi,I enjoyed the account those guys lived on the edge.A sprawling story worthy of a blockbusting movie about an era that has unfortunately gone.

[kootne]

Here is my old family story about those border war days and Colt 6 shooters. My (step) Grandmother was from Arkansas. She had an uncle Dave who had been a soldier in a Confederate unit from Arkansas. At some point they were marching on one of those hot sweaty southern summer days and he got heat exhaustion and passed out by the road. On coming to, he found a couple other men who had the same thing happen. They were double timing up the road to catch up when a soldier on horse back rode up with a revolver. He told them the Colonel had given him his horse and pistol and in front of the whole unit had ordered him the ride back and shoot the stragglers as deserters. So he said," Boys, I'm gonna shoot 3 times into the ground and you 3 had better not ever be seen in Arkansas again", Bang, Bang, Bang."Now git!" It made Dave so mad and scared that he made his way to the first Union line he could find and took the the oath not to bear arms against the Union, they shipped him north and let him go. He went west.

kootne

[Charlie Two Tracks]

Ya gonna pull them pistols or whistle Dixie? Buzzards gotta eat same as the worms. Dyin ain't much of a livin. So many great one liners. I have no idea how many times I have watched that movie.

[shooter93]

Neither the Regular Army nor the sharp shooting Longriflemen won the Revolution.....they both did. Same with the Civil War....regular Armies and Guerilla warfare were the norm. For a great read on Johnson get the book Crowkiller.

[smokeywolf]

Although the pistols were historically incorrect, at least the clothing was somewhat more realistic than many other westerns and "Civil War" movies I've seen.

Dad was a bit of an amateur historian and had many books covering the 1800s. Even as a youngster I would scoff at the movies showing all the cowboys dressed in nicely fitting store-bought shirts and pants, Beaver felt or Nutria cowboy hats that never sagged in the rain and fancy or custom made drop-belts & holsters to carry their Colt SAAs in, in the late 1860s period movie.
From going through dad's books over and over again, I knew that cowboys were poor and usually wore "home-spun" clothing that usually had holes or patches and fit poorly. They oft times wore hat made of wool that would sag when wet from rain. Before the advent of the metallic cartridge, when pistols were quite large, heavy and bulky, lots of westerners carried their pistols in saddle holsters rather than in or on belts.
And, gunfights were almost never enacted in the street of a western town, in a "fair" fight. They were carried out from ambush or utilizing an element of surprise.

I thank waksupi for the education on "liver eatin' Johnson (or Johnston)"

Much to many people's chagrin, Tom Horn was also not the innocent, misunderstood "range detective" as movies and modern stories portray him.

smokeywolf

[MBTcustom]

Much to many people's chagrin, Tom Horn was also not the innocent, misunderstood "range detective" as movies and modern stories portray him.

smokeywolf

Do you feel that Forrest Carter accurately depicted him in the sequel Josey Wales book?

Speaking of Forrest Carter (Asa Earl Carter) you should look up that piece of work. What a colossal douche bag!
I loved reading The education of Little Tree as I did both Josey Wales books but dang! That feller was about as rough as the characters he depicts in his novels.

Cry Geronimo! was also a favorite of mine. That guy sure could pull you into a story.

[smokeywolf]

I didn't read the Josey Wales books, but as I understand it, he was a quasi white supremacist.

I typed a few more blatantly disapproving comments about him, but as many here know, I have a tendency to speak my mind in no uncertain terms and heaven forbid I upset someone who holds a differing opinion.

I deleted my "harshly" worded opinion.

smokeywolf