The outlaw Josie Wales

[Powder Burn]

I shall endeavor to persevere.

[bob208]

yes there is a way to carry six in a cartage gun the firing pin is caught between two cartage rims. I carry mine that way. it must have been a common practice. the army issued colt cartages 6 to a pack.

[SSGOldfart]

I though it was a 1851 navy

[Thumbcocker]

There was no shortage of atrocities committed on the Missouri Kansas border during and before the war. Not especially heroic by any means. Cole Younger tried out an Enfield rifle on Union soldiers heading home on leave. They were unarmed and lined up in fornt of a tree to see how many the bullet would penetrate. It was a great time to be a sociopath.

Sherman's march was conducted in accordance with the rules of war as they existed at that time. While much property was destroyed or "appropriated" few non-combatants were harmed. Also few if any people starved in the winter after the march. Sherman realized that the ultimate battlefield was his opponents mind and that is where he fought it. The civilians realized that the confederacy could not defend them and the soldiers at the front were also concerned.

Comparing Sherman to the Missouri raiders in not valid. There is considerable doubt that some of the guerilla's were ever commissioned by the confederacy.

[Don Purcell]

If I knew that I was about to ride into the enemy I would have every chamber loaded.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Thumbcocker, they tell a different story in the south. The guerrillas under Quantrill were never in the in the confederate army. Sherman's march thru the south is considered by military historians to be the first case of total war against a civilian population in modern history. He even said he was going to make Georgia howl. You should tell us about brutal Camp Douglas in your state of Illinois. It's sole purpose was to kill captured confederate soldiers. There were snipers on the walls and when new captives were brought in, if any black man was among them in a grey uniform, he was shot on site. The prison Camp in Elmira new York was just as bad yet all we ever hear about is Andersonville in Georgia. Many died there of course from disease and hunger but so did the southern army as well as much of the southern population. As far as saying what comparison is valid or not. I will decide for myself.

[GLL]

"But it's not for eatin'. It's just for lookin' through."

[Mk42gunner]

Remember, the victor writes the history books.

I have said it before, but I am still amazed that more C&B (and even later cartridge) revolvers did not have lanyard loops on them.

Robert

[Cactus Farmer]

I've read that the Starr revolver was a big favorite of the "bad" guys too. I have an original Starr double action and it is powerful and 6 rounds fired DA is awesome firepower. A pair of them would be "bad news at Black Rock". Belle Starr, The Youngers, Jessie and his crew and other Southern fighters seemed to prefer the old 44DA as their arm of choice. Even at over 150 years old ,the only thing I've done to my Starr is change one worn out nipple. They are a very odd thread and getting the old one out was a chore but it is a surefire pistol now.

It's not a pristine piece but it has the cartouche on the grips so it was issued in the war. It's down here now and perhaps it was liberated from the original owner. Shooting historical firearms is something that everyone should do. I feel connected to those people who fought for what they believed in. May their souls rest in peace.

[Thumbcocker]

No part of my response was addressed to conditons or treatment of POW's.

As to Sherman he was aware that Georgia was the larder and armory of the Confederacy. His goal was to shorten the war and he did. He had a much bvetter overall stratigic grasp than most Confederate generals; especially Lee whos Virgina centric view of the war, refusal to release troops who could have been shuttled to hotspots within the Confederacy, and need to demonstrate cool tactic's resulting in significant losses from a smaller force with little stratigic gains seriously hampered the Confederacy's chances for a political solution. Sherman described Lee defending the front porch while the rest of the house burned to the ground.

Sherman's march through South Carolina, where the war started, was harsh. The fact that when his forces first entered South Carolina they encountered land mines (torpedos in those days) which were considered cowardly and almost a war crime, plus the contemporary view that South Carolina had caused the war did not help matters. One Georgia farmer was quoted as saying to Sherman's men sonething to the effect that he hoped they did at least as much in South Carolina as they did in Georgia.

The march through North Carolina, where there was considerable pro Union or at least anti-secession sentiment was much less destructive.

[Hickory]

Thumbcocker, they tell a different story in the south. The guerrillas under Quantrill were never in the in the confederate army. Sherman's march thru the south is considered by military historians to be the first case of total war against a civilian population in modern history. He even said he was going to make Georgia howl. You should tell us about brutal Camp Douglas in your state of Illinois. It's sole purpose was to kill captured confederate soldiers. There were snipers on the walls and when new captives were brought in, if any black man was among them in a grey uniform, he was shot on site. The prison Camp in Elmira new York was just as bad yet all we ever hear about is Andersonville in Georgia. Many died there of course from disease and hunger but so did the southern army as well as much of the southern population. As far as saying what comparison is valid or not. I will decide for myself.

I don't know who said it or even if I'll get entirely correct, but someone once said; " It is good that war is so horrible, least we come to enjoy it."

[Clay M]

The revolvers he used in that movie are in the museum at Cody,WY. At least they were the last time I was there.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Hickory, Lee said it during the civil war and Patton admitted war was horrible but he did love it so. Sherman said " war is hell ". I have not mentioned that Sheridan on orders from Lincoln carried out the same destruction in Virginia that Sherman did in Georgia and South Carolina. No matter how you rationalize it the union army waged war against the civilian population of the south. The southern army did not do this on the incursions they made into enemy territory. I would also like to say that this is a pointless debate. Neither of us will ever be convinced to change our mind so I don't wish to waste anymore time on it. I do believe that the war was a stupid and tragic waste of property, human lives and left a bitterness that is with us to this day.

[Thumbcocker]

Gopher Slayer:

I fully concur with the last paragraph of your last post. You are obviously an intelligent and well read man. I would be happy to have lunch or burn powder with you. I bet we would have a great time talking about boolits, guns and other fun stuff.

Regards.

[Elkins45]

The object of all this firepower was to give the geurilla warrior the ability to charge through enemy ranks with his buddies in a surprise attack laying down as much lead as possible as they cut their swath, after which they would retreat to a position of relative safety and reload all those guns they emptied. (seriously, that must have taken 45 minutes!)
In that day, repeating firearms were just making their debut and this style of fighting was looked down upon, as being murder on the battlefield. They gave no quarter to men who would choose this cowardly and savage method of fighting over lining up like gentlemen sporting their coutries colors and blasting away at eachother with single shot rifles.
In truth, using artilary was a relatively new thing. It too was considered an uncouth and base practice that only seafaring scum would engage in. However, it was eventually considered as an acceptable (barely) and very expensive land war practice.
To put it in modern perspective, it would be like a country willy nilly using small nuclear weapons and pitching in with whatever country they happen to back at the time, giving the people who they were fighting for a very real edge while also making them the most hated people on the planet. Even the countries they had helped would think of them as total scum.
That's the way it was for the guerrilla warriors and the snipers in the civil war. Once the conflict was over, they were not well thought of.

This seems odd to me, given that the Revolution was fought and won using guerrilla tactics and sniping with rifles.

[doc1876]

we will all agree about war. We also all agree this was a great movie. I fight on both sides, depending upon who's paying. there is pain and suffering on both sides, and nothing civil about war.

[smokeywolf]

I have said many times that I was born 100 years too late. Even taking into account the children conscripted into service during the war of Northern aggression, I still probably would have escaped battle and not been perceived as a potential threat.

smokeywolf

[Glassman66]

Jose Wales was modeled on the border guerillas along the Kansas-Missouri border.
I have a friend that has family stories of great grandfathers hiding the plowing mule
and horses in a brushy ravine while Quantrill's raiders burned their barn and killed all the
livestock they could find. This was the famous Lawrence raid.

Dangerous times for civilians. His great grandmother was forced to feed the raiders, and
they left her alone. The great grandfather, plow mule and horse survived and the family
was able to still farm. Quantrill was shooting the men, boys and livestock. The family still owns
the same land today.

While the fictional Jose Wales seems to have carried mostly the HUGE Colt Walkers with some
1860s and smaller pocket pistols for backup, all my reading indicates they preferred the Colt Navy .36s.
in fact, Jesse James rode with the guerillas and they carried many Colt Navy .36s, up to 8 or 10 if
they could get them. Think of a mobile force sweeping down on a camp of regulars armed
primarily with single shot muzzle loading rifled muskets. The rifles can shoot up to 3 rds
per minute, but being shot at by horsemen at close range would slow that a lot. The
riders had up to 48 to 60 shots available, probably able to fire all in 2-3 minutes, themselves
presenting a moving target. The firepower advantage must have been the first real
"shock and awe" form of attack.

It would seem that 10-20 riders (with 500-1000 shots available in a few minutes time) could
seriously disrupt a group of regulars in camp that were maybe 10 times their size.

Few know that the wives and children of many of the Missouri border guerillas were rounded up and
held in a building in Kansas City. While they were held there, the building collapsed and killed
many of the wives of men that later became famous guerilla leaders, driven by the hatred
of those that killed their wives. So, the basic story of Josy Wales - a guerilla driven by revenge
for his wife, and people being shot and burned out of their farms all along the border by
Federal troops and guerillas, and revenge by Confederate guerillas - is all pretty much historical.

The James brothers, and the Youngers were all involved in this fighting and learned their
skills during the war, turning to bank and train robbing after the war.

Bill

I live in Harrisonville, Mo. and after they sacked Lawrence, General Ewing issued general order #11 and all residents where told to leave town and it was mostly burned down.

Anyone interested can read more here. http://civilwarmissouri.blogspot.com...number-11.html

I love the Josey Whales movie by the way!



Randy

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Thumbcocker, I appreciate your kind remarks. I think it would be a great experience to met you for lunch and a trip to the range. I am sure we have much in common.

[MtGun44]

The comment that "the Revolution was won with guerilla tactics and sniper rifles" grabbed my attention.

I have to say that this shows a substantial lack of study of the history of the American Revolution. While
the first few battles were fought largely that way, we rapidly adopted the normal army methods and
weapons (muskets) because they were most effective on the battlefield. We still had some militia
with rifles, but at many battles the militia were the weak point and the British regulars knew this and
would fire their first volley and do a bayonet charge towards the militia, knowing that the militia did
not have bayonets, and many had slow-to-load rifles, not the rapid firing muskets. Add in the poor
training of the militias and they would almost always break and run, giving the British the ability
to break through American lines and flank our regulars.

Gradually, the militias were converted to muskets, and became better trained. There is no question that
riflemen and shooting individual officers was an American tactic that was bitterly complained about
by the British officer corps, but we were fighting for our lives and country and not too interested in
their 'sporting rules for European style warfare' - which was at least partly due to the great deal
of intermarriage in the ruling classes, so killing one's cousin just because there was a disagreement
between two kings "just wasn't done". Frankly, we thought it was a great idea, and used the idea
to advantage in a number of battles.

By the time we were really winning, we had pretty much a normal regular army, with all the things
that this brings - muskets, cannon, bayonet charges, and standard tactics of the day of shooting
in ranks. Yes, some battles were turned by careful application of rifle fire, no doubt about it,
but the extreme slowness of firing with rifles of the day left them in the dust most of the time.

I have to sincerely disagree with the statement "the Revolution was won with guerilla tactics and sniper rifles"
beyond the first battles like Lexington and Concord. Perhaps these very widely reported opening engagements
are so strong in the popular media that these desperation tactics are thought to have applied across the whole
war, but that is quite far from historically correct.

Bill