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Thread: Small primer cases for the 45-70

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Small primer cases for the 45-70

    I saw somewhere that Buffalo bore is selling their 45-70 ammo with small primers to avoid magazine tube explosions in the Marlin 1895! I know what they are getting at, worrying about the cases cocking in the bulge that is in the tube to facilitate loading. REALLY? Has anyone ever heard of such a problem? I think it's another lawyer try to prove he is worth keeping on the pay roll.
    "There's a Fine Line Between Hobby and Mental Illness"!

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    I think that using a small primer in such a large case is a BIG mistake, especially with smokeless powder, because even a magnum small rifle primer would be marginal in the case of heavily coated powders, in lower loading densities than about 70% of case capacity.

    In my testing of .45 ACP target ammunition, the small size primer is better balanced for light charges of easily ignited, fast burning powders, such as Bullseye, TiteGroup, etc., but in full service loads with slower burning powders, there is about a 40-45 fps velocity drop with the small vs. the large primer. Using magnum small pistol primers in the .45 ACP case with hardball equivalent loads gives performance very close to standard large pistol primers with the same components.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I find it hard to believe that even a round nose boolit would set off a primer, especially when one considers that the cartridges ride on an angle in the tube due to both rim and taper.

    I shot thousands of rounds of hot loaded .45-70's in my old Marlin using the Lyman 457124 385 gr. round nose boolit with no problems at all.

    Of course a flat nose boolit would eliminate any possibility of setting off a primer.

    Longbow

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Seems like a solution for a problem that doesnt exist. One that only complicates reloading. For the longest time, 45ACP range brass was no problem, now you have to check and make sure you dont get any small primer cases mixed with large. I dont generally see more than a few, if any, but only takes one to jam up the works. So now we would need to check 45-70 cases, just in case one is a rare small primer version.

    Not sure the reasoning anyways, only factory loaded pointed 45-70 ammo is gonna be the hornady with the flex tip. I made the mistake of buying some spitzer 458s once, not that they would cycle thru the marlin 1895 I had.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    I think the questionable reasoning is that a cartridge, with a flat nose bullet, would enter that bulge which would angle it enough so that an edge on the FP would be inline with the next primer. Very questionable indeed!
    "There's a Fine Line Between Hobby and Mental Illness"!

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy
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    I can't think of a reason other than pricing and availability. It doesn't make a lot sense other than that.

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master

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    My concern is that a small primer pocket would possibly preclude using SP primers in BP loads, some BP loads for the 45-70 do quite well with LP primers so presumably they wouldn't need the larger flame of the SR primer.
    Endowment Life Member NRA, Life Member TSRA, Member WACA, NRA Whittington Center, BBHC
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  8. #8
    Boolit Buddy pull the trigger's Avatar
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    The smaller primer size takes higher pressure aka a hotter load. The guys shooting 6.8 in ar15s like the small primers because of this.
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  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    I don't know about small primer 45-70s. I did run across a company almost a decade back that made 45-70s with 209 shotshell primer pockets. Wish the heck I had picked up a few. A guy I knew had some and they worked very well for black powder and subs for him. Unfortunately when he passed they went to a scrap yard before any of his shooting buddies know what happened.

    GoodOlBoy
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  10. #10
    In Remembrance w30wcf's Avatar
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    The early .45-70 "Marlin Safety" black powder cartridge used small primers. At that time apparently they were concerned that the recoil might set off a large primer.

    w30wcf
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Well, my 1895 CB certainly does recoil! As they say, "it kicks at both ends"
    "There's a Fine Line Between Hobby and Mental Illness"!

  12. #12
    Boolit Bub
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    I would think that the center of a primer where the anvil is placed to ignite the ignition coumpound would be accessible in a large or small primer. The center is the center is the center.

    Anyway I thunk those small pistol primers in the large 45/70 case are designed for the use of black powder.Of course black powder not liking to ignite in an expanding space when the primer pressure pops the bullet a head into the rifling is a concern with smokeless too.
    With the black the bullet moving forward due to primer pressure lets the bullet become like a bore obstruction. In the least the black doesn't ignite well when the space is large when the primer pops the bullet forward.
    Same goes with the smokeless also.

    Anyway I thought the idea about using the small primer in the 45/70 was to keep the primer pressure from popping the bullet forward ahead of the powder ignition.
    A firm crimp can solve that problem. Some black powder shooters don't like crimps though. Some claim they get better accuracy without the crimp.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    """I would think that the center of a primer where the anvil is placed to ignite the ignition coumpound would be accessible in a large or small primer. The center is the center is the center.""""
    Yes true but if properly seated the center of the primer should be below flush with the case head. If the meplate of a bullet is smaller in diameter than the diameter of the primer pocket then it is resting on the primer. It will not have to be resting only on the center to cause ignition and if you have ever hit a primer with a hammer you will know this.
    So by using a smaller diameter primer pocket allows the safe use of bullets with smaller diameter meplates where as the larger diameter primer pocket eliminates the safe use of many more bullet designs.
    The only small primer pocket 45/70 cases I have seen are stamped "MAGNUM" so I don't think they were intended for black powder. The idea was to be fully certain that the bullet meplate is resting on the case head and not making any contact with the primer.

  14. #14
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    To add to what Bullshop said,, this solution was given to Buffalo Bore by Brian Pearce when they thought they had a problem with smaller Meplat boolits possibly igniting rounds in the magazine .

    The small primer fixed this problem and that's why they use them.

    They are in a liability position being an ammo manufacturer and as such they must take every precaution to insure the safety of their products when used in EVERYBODY'S Guns.

    As far as I know they are the only outfit that does this as I don't believe that Garrett does.

    It seems to work just fine and the Small Rifle Primers ignite the type of powder they use under all conditions, which is what they are going for.

    It may not be necessary, but they did it anyway.

    Randy
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  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    I read that article and called Marlin. The guy in customer service said don't worry about it as long as the bullet is not pointed your good to go. He did say something about a part you could by for leverlution cartridges if you shoot them in your Marlin.
    A gun is like a parachute: If you need one and don't have one, you won't be needing one again.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    A couple weeks ago, I had a misfire/hangfire with my Marlin 45-70. The reloaded Buffalo Bore case held a small rifle primer, a 405 gr cast bullet, and a charge of double-base powder. I dropped the hammer on the cartridge twice. When I got home, I pulled the bullet and most of the powder poured out normally, but the last thing out of the case was a chunk of what looked like charcoal. So, from now on, when I reload BB cases I'll use only single base powders and magnum small rifle primers.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

    Rattlesnake Charlie's Avatar
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    I have not heard of any problem. I only load bullets with a sufficiently large meplat to avoid this potential problem for my Marlin. The Sharps gets some pointy ones that I would never load for the Marlin. They are probably too long anyway to make it through the loading gate anyway.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    When I pull up to the gas pump there is a warning to not use cell phones because they can ignite gasoline fumes. The fact is that this has NEVER happened, it is hypothetical and the result might be able to be produced in a lab, but the odds in the real world are below those of being struck by a meteor.

    So, have there really been examples of rounds being set off in the tube by RN or FN bullets?

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimB.. View Post
    When I pull up to the gas pump there is a warning to not use cell phones because they can ignite gasoline fumes. The fact is that this has NEVER happened, it is hypothetical and the result might be able to be produced in a lab, but the odds in the real world are below those of being struck by a meteor.

    So, have there really been examples of rounds being set off in the tube by RN or FN bullets?
    Question is do you want to be the one feller in a million that loses half his hand when the magazine blows off - rumour has it there have been several instances of this happening with Henry rifles at CAS shoots - I dont know - I wasnt there - but something had to start the story ???

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by indian joe View Post
    Question is do you want to be the one feller in a million that loses half his hand when the magazine blows off - rumour has it there have been several instances of this happening with Henry rifles at CAS shoots - I dont know - I wasnt there - but something had to start the story ???
    With that mindset you probably shouldn’t be reloading, it seems like there have been far more kabooms from charging or powder mistakes than from this as yet unconfirmed risk. Probably should stop driving too.

    Sorry if that comes across as snarky, I’m just unhappy about the state of fear in America.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check