Homemade Lube, Geargnasher's SL68 recipe

[Grump]

Sooo..... has anyone Google'd "technical beeswax"???

I did and like MANY of my other searches in several other subject fields, got less than a full page of results. Most were "technical" fact of rather generic nature from candlemakers or beekeeping enthusiasts, plus the usual Wikipedia article.

Of note is that Google Books dragged up what appears to be a 2012 or 13 Army TM/FM on fabric repair which specifies use of "technical beeswax" on thread for canvas repairs.

It, or another page, even had an NSN number but Googling that got me my second or third goose-egg Google result of the week.

Since it's illegal to put incorrect information on the innerweb, these snippets are not only not quite helpful but possibly...incorrect!

I am curious about whether one could "cook" beeswax and remove/separate from some of the more troublesome (??shorter-chain??) esters and/or alcohols and get a much, much more heat-resistant product that performs as the 1st/2nd/3rd Amigo who smoked a pot of Navy Wax reports. The effect of an anti-oxidant is also an intriguing possibility, especially considering an additive is the opposite approach of extreme "refining". Perhaps both in tandem are what makes Navy Wax. I am not convinced that the 1950s era stuff that is now Unobtanium really is the same as "technical beeswax", but it is a possibility.

And Sarge, I was moving the conversation along and just didn't feel like my usual fact-checking self, to look up when all Navy purchases got funneled through DoD central, which I don't even know if it was the same time the War Department got its name changed. I've read so many military documents over the years I just don't remember details like that, but I am quite sure that Navy long ago used to do a lot of its own thing without coordinating with Army or anyone else.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

We need to get a MSDS from the Queen...I wonder if there are some sugars locked in Beeswax...making it want to burn/scorch at lower temps ?

What I am really wondering is, if there are sugars locked in there, is a method to unlock them ?

JonB....... I think you have made an excellent point. The Beeswax in our cabinet if probably filtered but basically 'raw' for lack of a better word!
My questions would be: "Does the actual wax in Beeswax scorch or does some residuals in it scorch?"....... "Can Beeswax be refined?" ......"Can this refining raise the heat capability?" "Is this the difference in 'Starmetal's' Navy Beeswax? Is it refined?"

Beeswax that could take 500° would be a lube formulator's dream!

Eutectic

...snip
I am curious about whether one could "cook" beeswax and remove/separate from some of the more troublesome (??shorter-chain??) esters and/or alcohols and get a much, much more heat-resistant product
...snip

Have anyone ever tried the simple act of Boiling some beeswax (in a pot of boiling water) for an extended period of time...like an hour ?

If just water wouldn't separate anything, maybe add some mineral spirits near the end of the boil...would that separate any scorchable things from the wax.

I am thinking of trying this, but didn't want to waste my time if this is a bad idea or has been done before.
Jon

[runfiverun]

jon:
you could just go to the hardware store and buy refined bees wax.
they sell little pucks of it to rub on screws and nails to make them easier to drive.
they cost about 2 bucks.

[geargnasher]

Technical beeswax, national number 9160-00-253-1171, was what met the Navy spec posted elsewhere and yet it still fried at 430F.

I do believe we are being played for the information, it only took ten years to get someone to argue that it ISN'T beeswax strongly enough to actually have it tested.

Gear

[Grump]

Technical beeswax, national number 9160-00-253-1171, was what met the Navy spec posted elsewhere and yet it still fried at 430F.

I do believe we are being played for the information, it only took ten years to get someone to argue that it ISN'T beeswax strongly enough to actually have it tested.

Gear

Hmmm...interesting.

Thus WHY the stuff that was circulated and used with such success is believed here to be NOT beeswax.

OTOH, has anyone tried to make StarMetal Lube using technical beeswax and the modified don't scorch it brewing methodology? Just wondering if the "technical" stuff could even come close to duplicating the excellent reported performance of the Unobtanium lube...

All of which really won't matter if SL-68 meets The Quest criteria...

[Eutectic]

All of which really won't matter if SL-68 meets The Quest criteria...

Speaking of which....... I'm testing in the morning.... -8°F.. Could be double digits minus right here at my elevation!

Gun and ammo will be outside at 4:00 AM to get fully saturated. Love that stock sticking to my face!

I'm running Gear's SL-68 and StarMetal's translucent orange.

I'll keep you posted....

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

WOOHOOO!!! Thank you, Pete, you're a lube-testing gentleman extraordinaire. I don't really expect stellar things at sub-zero with either lube, but you're the only one able and willing to find out for us.

The SL-68.3 with the little tad of Maxima K2 ester is what I'm going to be testing next. I intended it for the really cold and really hot testing, the little bit of ester binds things up nicely, slows the wicking of oil out of the lube at 160+F on paper, and the anti-oxidant stuff it provides keeps the lube from discoloring on the outer layers when exposed to the air for a few months.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Hmmm...interesting.

Thus WHY the stuff that was circulated and used with such success is believed here to be NOT beeswax.

OTOH, has anyone tried to make StarMetal Lube using technical beeswax and the modified don't scorch it brewing methodology? Just wondering if the "technical" stuff could even come close to duplicating the excellent reported performance of the Unobtanium lube...

All of which really won't matter if SL-68 meets The Quest criteria...

I don't know how else I can put it so that it makes sense. Starmetal lube is made from a wax, claimed to be beeswax and used by many members here, obtained from a huge group buy here: http://forum1.aimoo.com/cast___booli...x-1-64119.html.

This Navy wax made it possible for Starmetal to make his soap lube. He first tried it with ordinary beeswax and it fried. He changed two things, the wax and his cooking technique, which produced the lube that I and Eutectic have samples of.

The reason this wax makes it possible to make the soap lube is that it can withstand the very high temperatures necessary for melting the soap without burning.

No beeswax that has ever been tested by me or anyone I know can withstand 460F without scorching, no matter the cooking technique unless it is done in a pressure vessel or some other means beyond what has been tried.

Starmetal lube can be made with canning paraffin, candle wax, and both BW-430 and 431 micro-crystalline waxes with no issues or scorching whatsoever, but it cannot be made with any substance that cannot withstand 460F.

Starmetal and 45 2.1 insist that the Navy wax is beeswax, regardless of all my evidence to the contrary. Both of them have a limited supply of the Navy wax and would no doubt like to obtain more, since it has proven to be a most excellent wax for all manner of bullet lubricants, particularly Starmetal's soap lube, and is in a lot of ways "better" than the petroleum waxes I've tried so far, probably because it is less refined and has higher viscosity at high temperature with a less abrupt phase line.

Many of us would like more of the Navy wax. The only way to duplicate it is to have a detailed analysis done by a company that actually CAN duplicate it. This costs money. By continuing to play the devil's advocate, those continuing the argument that it is beeswax and I'm stupid/unqualified/don't follow directions know that I'll go to great measures to prove them wrong as well as satisfy the rest of us with a very good wax product. Those same people COULD have open minds, offer to share costs of testing, and actually help, but that is not how some people operate.

It's a manipulative game for some to satisfy their own ends without money or effort, the same sort of thing I keep getting accused of. No matter though, all I want is the wax formula and an infinite supply of a reasonable facsimile, and I'm going to get it and try to share it with all of you in a POSITIVE light anyway, all the arguing that it's beeswax is only an irritant.

Gear

[Eutectic]

Well it was warmer than I thought as a thin overcast came in. I started at -7°F below and finished at -5° a couple hours later.
I used a Remington Model 700 Classic in .250-3000. I have modified the 'throat' .095" deeper for cast. I used a load with a 84gr gascheck .25-20 boolit. In sane temps it will group 3/4" or better at my 85 yard target. MV is 2100fps and twist is 1 in 10" .... RPM is 151,200... Sorry, I regress...

Before I get any slack for 4 shot groups let me tell you something. These 4 shots spaced 15 minutes apart will tell you more about performance in bitter cold that 100-10 shot groups in weather the rest of you shoot in!!

Point of impact is where it was at 80° warmer. Barrel visually looked good all 8 rounds. The very first shot (cold start) was dead-on both lubes! I am fighting a C.O.R.E. issue for the dropping shots; not sure what it is... It could be time! The last shot was 45 minutes spacing (StarMetal) and it was back into the group! I had some chores and had to stoke the stove so it wasn't planned.

I consider this passing grades for both at these temps; especially for hunting with the first shot perfect. I know what minus temps can do to a lube! The two lubes acted a lot alike in this test. All loads sounded sharp. The ammo sat out all night! Gun 3 hours.

This is a brutal test for a boolit lube. I think it harder to pass that Gear's 'dashboard Texas summer test!

Targets are attached with shot sequence numbered. A close-up of holes is attached especially for Lamar. He likes to look at my 'holes' close up!

Last but not least is the Model 700 finally back in the warm house!

Eutectic

[geargnasher]

Wow, my hat is off to you again, Sir. Interesting that the Starmetal lube shot about the same as SL-68 right after it, I assume no cleaning?

Also, just to confirm, the SL-68 used was the whitish, harder, almost too-dry lube, not any of the dot-whatevers with the beeswax tint, correct?

Gear

[Eutectic]

Wow, my hat is off to you again, Sir. Interesting that the Starmetal lube shot about the same as SL-68 right after it, I assume no cleaning?

Also, just to confirm, the SL-68 used was the whitish, harder, almost too-dry lube, not any of the dot-whatevers with the beeswax tint, correct?

Gear

Yes Ian, SL68 with no dots. I figured it could be the baseline. I like the feel of it personally. I have learned too oily will get you in trouble fast. It's sure 'smelly'... Are you sure your GL-1 oil is free of EP additive?

As they were pretty close in formulation I shot Joe's on top of yours. The first shot of Joe's had a longer time span between shots as did the last. Humm? Normalizing may just take a half hour??

I 'felt' Joe's pretty good as I finger lubed. Whatever lars45 has in his Carnauba Red that pulls away with those micro threads is also how Joe's acted. Same wax but what? I may 'soap' some Carnauba Red and soften it a touch with mineral oil...

Did you notice how clean the holes were? I actually think they could group at -7° if one knew the correct sequence to shoot them at. Funny...... groups are best in summer when the barrel is cool enough... Seems sub-zero likes them stone-cold!

It's nothing for a 'lousy' lube to shoot 6" or bigger at 85 yards in the minus world after shooting under an inch at 80°. Sub-zero is tough on everything.

Eutectic

[runfiverun]

there is nothing being drug along or clinging to the base of the boolit.

odd that 3 went left in both groups but it was #2 and #4 that dropped low out from the 2 lubes.
I'm sure there is something there that would point out why. [load/boolit anomaly? shrug]
the groups being quite similar is encouraging though.


sides...
I gotta look at holes at arms length nowadays.


carnuba red is made up of 7 different waxes, and there is a different formulation available that is slightly harder for shipping purposes [called commercial C-red]
modifying that lube wouldn't tell you which wax you were modifying, I do know it's sensitive to alcohol manipulation though as I have hardened the skin on lubed boolits with rubbing alcohol.

[geargnasher]

The specific combination of microcrystalline wax softened with mineral (paraffin) oil makes that feather effect. I played with a lot of different waxes and oils for a very long time before I finally figured that one out, it's one of the properties of Joe's lube that puzzled me the most, besides the terrific film strength and how well it seemed to shoot in everything. The SL68.1 has a lot of feather to it, too, but the 68 is made about one tablespoon per half-pound shy on oils to see the same effect.

I've been shooting the 68 almost exclusively in my rifles and pistols since early spring, I just kept reaching for it since it seemed to just go to work every time I asked it to, haven't really seen any failures yet even at 2600 fps, and it's just superb in my .38 and .45 Colt revolvers, rifles, and carbines.

One thing I'd like to improve, and this may come with the wax, is the oxidation stability. If I don't use any Vaseline, as in the 68.1, the lube starts to change colors on the outer layer, telling me oxygen is breaking down the color or something. Some lubes made with canning paraffin do this too. Bruce381 mentioned BHT, maybe we need a wax that has that in it. Joe's lube is immune to any sort of surface oxidation, discoloring, or any corrosion of polished brass/copper exposed to it for going on three years now, so it's pretty durn oxidation-stable. That's something that needs work in the SL series, like I've said before that micro 180 needs some improvement.

Gear

[runfiverun]

aren't BHA and BHT food preservatives?

[geargnasher]

I think they are. Same thing, no? Antioxidants protect food? Maybe we should add MSG to our rifle bullets to help them "go to sleep".

Gear

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I wish I could add some comments to this thread, in regards to how the SL68 (that I made with a unknown brand of 175º Microwax) works while shooting. But sadly, I haven't shot any boolits that were lubed with it yet. I made these two batches in late July ....then in Aug and Sept, I am always extremely busy ...gardening/canning/wood cutting/getting ready for the one gunshow I work...then I got called back to work right after the gunshow...I've just had no time.

BUT, what I can add to the conversation is how it works in a lubesizer.
It flows incredibility easy for such a high temp lube. Mostly no heat is needed, but the room I use for casting and lubesizing is quite cold in the winter, So I do use a heater when its cold outside and that room is usually around 55 to 60º.

AND...
I did fill a Lyman 45 with the first batch of SL68 where I added a crayon and it ended up quite 'burnt'. weeks later, after I learned it was burnt, I attempted to clean the lube out of that lubesizer and fill it with SL68 Lube from the second batch, which was originally poured in tunafish cans.

This lube takes a lot of heat. I couldn't melt it out of the lubesizer with a heatgun. I got the press so hot, it was smokin' ....and I was starting to worry that I was going to burn the paint (it was original on this one). So I discontinued heating the press, the lube wasn't melted, but it was soft, about like lithium grease at room temp. So I used a screw driver and a roll of paper towels...then a bunch of Q-tips in and around the Die area...flushing it a couple times with a penetrating oil. it was a lot of work to get it clean.

Then...
to fill the sizer...same problem. I couldn't melt it and pour it into the sizer from the tunafish can. I just started scooping/scrapping it (with a long screwdriver) out of the can in chunks (without heating it) and filling the reservoir that way. Next time I make a batch or two, I am going to pour into a cookie sheet, so I can easily cut it into strips to fill the reservoir.

I am overall happy with how this stuff flows throw the lubesizer and with the right prep work (pouring it into shallow flat pan) and hopefully never having to clean out a lubesizer that has it, in it...it'll have no real draw backs.

This stuff should really handle the heat well (ie: loaded ammo stored in a HOT car).
Jon

[Bigslug]

Good intel JohnB. Note for SL68 makers - make your stick molds out of metal pipe, not PVC.

[btroj]

I think they are. Same thing, no? Antioxidants protect food? Maybe we should add MSG to our rifle bullets to help them "go to sleep".

Gear

Antioxidants eh? Why not a touch of tocopherol? Great antioxidant is already in an oil.

[Eutectic]

Antioxidants eh? Why not a touch of tocopherol? Great antioxidant is already in an oil.

GL-1 gear lubricant should have an anti-oxidant on board... Maybe it's not enough for the whole 'mix' though...

Eutectic

[btroj]

Maybe Bruce can chime in and let us know what is commonly used in oil and grease to reduce oxidation.