Homemade Lube, Geargnasher's SL68 recipe

[geargnasher]

Bob, why don't you actually try to make a batch of Starmetal's lube per his exact instructions using real beeswax, and then try it again using the Navy wax? Anything less than experiencing it for yourself is, as you are fond of saying about similar things, "pure conjecture".

Gear

[btroj]

More of the same. I know but I'm not telling. Why even bother to say anything?

This is is almost as helpful as telling me I can't shoot accurately above a certain rpm.

[45 2.1]

Bob, why don't you actually try to make a batch of Starmetal's lube per his exact instructions using real beeswax, and then try it again using the Navy wax? Anything less than experiencing it for yourself is, as you are fond of saying about similar things, "pure conjecture". Gear

BTDT......... with the exception of not following procedures I know don't work well (since my supply of yellow vaseline is low and I do use it in my own lube formulation). THAT is WHY I've told you about not combining different materials above their flash point ranges. You do understand "solidus" and "flash point" for materials...Correct? If so, then why on earth did you try something like you did?

[geargnasher]

So you DIDN'T follow Joe's directions then. I can actually make it with beeswax by observing what you say, Runfiverun and I call it making lube in "reverse", where the soap and higher flash point ingredients are heated to just break the liquidus phase line of the soap, then allowed to gel together and then cooled slightly to a safe point for the beeswax, then that is melted in. It's lumpy and takes several mild remeltings and stirrings to get smooth (like making Lithi-Bee, same principle exactly), but it sorta works. Problem is, it doesn't fully incorporate the wax into the metal soap matrix, so it doesn't behave as well or as consistently when fired as does a fully homogenized mixture using a wax that can take 460F without scorching. Another thing is it leaks at 150+ degrees, whereas the lubes where the wax is gelled in with the Vaseline do not leak at temperatures above the melt point of the wax. Some of the low-60 series SL lubes were made this way. The Navy wax is as close to beeswax as I've seen, the only things as close are certain Batik waxes, one of which I had that was absolutely identical in every way I could test to the Navy wax, yet was a micro/paraffin blend.

Joe said to take a gallon paint can, melt enough wax in it to bring up to 1/4 full, then add enough dry, finely powdered Ivory soap to make it half full, and raise the heat very carefully until it's all liquid. He checked out of curiosity how hot it was when fully melted and his thermometer read 460F. He then added a margerine-dish sized dollop of homemade vaseline (puzzle me how much that is or what it is), two spoonfuls (NOT measuring spoons, later he checked and they were eating spoons that held less, I forget exactly how much less) of castor bean oil, I presume he stirred, then took off the heat. The next day it had cooled to an opaque, white, stiff substance which he reheated just enough to add coloring dye. You do that with regular beeswax and I absolutely guarantee it will fry to a stinky brown gelatinous mess a hundred degrees before you ever get the soap melted. If you do it in "reverse", you won't end up with the same substance as if you melt it all together at the melt point of the soap.

You criticize me for using damp soap slivers and utilizing the process of foaming and emulsion to break down the soap into easily melted particles after the water boils off. This doesn't affect the ingredients at all vs. melting powdered soap except it is far easier than drying and powdering the soap and the soap actually dissolves better if it is added wet and allowed to emulsify first. Lots faster, too. I've made it every way it can be made outside of a vacuum or oxygen-free container and it will not work with real beeswax, period.

So, the trick for me has been to find a suitable wax that has the properties of Mr. William's Navy wax. Various blends of micro and paraffin get very close if softened with around 3-5% paraffin oil. Beeswax is beeswax, I don't know how anyone could possibly make beeswax into something that is so "unlike what I'm used to" that it has a scorch point over 300 degrees higher.

Gear

[bruce381]

""The Navy wax is made from petroleum wax which can stand at least 515F by itself for an extended period of time without even discoloring."'

As the TV show said "I don't think so tim" I know of NO pet "wax" that will melt at 460F.

whatever you have is NO a de oiled wax or even close a Mil spec would be nice but guess thats a secret.

[stephen m weiss]

Am I right that thixotropic materials are not working because they either separate or gum up? What about adding a shear thickening agent so that it scrapes out clean with every shot? I know of only a water based one, but there must be oil based ones as well. Making an entire water based lube sounds like a shelf time nightmare, but if the bullet crimp seals it well and it does not migrate, perhaps it could work. Then an oiled barrel will just help with surface tension.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

We need to get a MSDS from the Queen...I wonder if there are some sugars locked in Beeswax...making it want to burn/scorch at lower temps ?

What I am really wondering is, if there are sugars locked in there, is a method to unlock them ?

[Eutectic]

We need to get a MSDS from the Queen...I wonder if there are some sugars locked in Beeswax...making it want to burn/scorch at lower temps ?

What I am really wondering is, if there are sugars locked in there, is a method to unlock them ?

JonB....... I think you have made an excellent point. The Beeswax in our cabinet if probably filtered but basically 'raw' for lack of a better word!
My questions would be: "Does the actual wax in Beeswax scorch or does some residuals in it scorch?"....... "Can Beeswax be refined?" ......"Can this refining raise the heat capability?" "Is this the difference in 'Starmetal's' Navy Beeswax? Is it refined?"

Beeswax that could take 500° would be a lube formulator's dream!

Eutectic

[45 2.1]

JonB....... I think you have made an excellent point. The Beeswax in our cabinet if probably filtered but basically 'raw' for lack of a better word!
My questions would be: "Does the actual wax in Beeswax scorch or does some residuals in it scorch?"....... "Can Beeswax be refined?" ......"Can this refining raise the heat capability?" "Is this the difference in 'Starmetal's' Navy Beeswax? Is it refined?"

Beeswax that could take 500° would be a lube formulator's dream!

Eutectic

Does anyone understand what butter and ghee are? Same difference................

[geargnasher]

If the Navy wax was purified to the level that it was only hydrocarbon wax chains and various esters (which would be tough to do efficiently), it wouldn't smell like honey as claimed.

It smells like hot paraffin wax to me, there's a distinct "oily" smell to it when heated to the point that it smokes. I have used several commercial beeswax formulations including some refined for medical use which are almost clear. THEY STILL FRY at around 360F and auto-ignite at much over 400.

I don't really care if it's beeswax or not, the principle point is that most of what we know as beeswax and can purchase as beeswax won't work, and I'd like to find something more like the Navy wax that I can buy. If it IS some sort of refined beeswax, WHERE CAN ONE BUY IT? Surely it is still made.

Bruce, it's the sodium stearate in the Ivory soap that melts at 460F. When doing this at home, outside in an open pot, the soap needs to be mixed at least 50/50 with something else like wax or oil that can handle that temperature in order to melt the soap without scorching the actual soap. Beeswax can't take the heat required to melt SS so either you burn the wax or the SS never melts with the wax. This Navy wax melts at 147F just like ordinary beeswax does, but unlike ordinary beeswax it will withstand 515F without discoloring. It might have taken more heat and been fine but was starting to smoke pretty badly at 515F so that's where I quit. I didn't heat it enough to determine the auto-ignition point as I didn't want to ruin that portion of the sample Joe sent me. The Navy wax is also much more dense than any sample of the several beeswaxes I have, this determined with relative alcohol/H2O concentrations and the "float/sink" test. I'll have to re-check with just distilled water, but the Navy wax might have an SG slightly greater than one. It's close to one, anyway.

Gear

[btroj]

Does anyone understand what butter and ghee are? Same difference................

So we melt the beeswax, hold it at a steady temp for a period, and decant off the wax leaving behind the junk on the bottom after having evaporated off all the water.

Care to give specifics on temp and time?

[Grump]

Does anyone have any idea about what year(s) or decade(s) the Navy wax was reportedly made and delivered to USN?

Models of devices it was used to waterproof could at least give us a "not later than" date or any such device (ordnance?) that has since been obsoleted. A bit less reliable would be deducing a probable "some time on or after [date]" bookend.

I ask because from the dates of use and devices for which it was used, a clever person* could try to track down the specs of the product by digging through purchase/bid/RFP documents if any still exist...


*Maybe more clever than Mad Max (maybe) but certainly with more and different resources.

[Grump]

Having discussed the difficulties of replicating StarMetal's lube with at least one of the Three Amigos (perhaps including in PM) over the past year or two, this additional information leads me to believe that getting *currently available* and affordable stocks of Navy Wax just might have led to successful conclusion of the Lube Quest before I ever started reading that gigantic thread... What's in this thread might amount to an outright statement of this possible but currently unavailable outcome.

[tomme boy]

I can't believe you guys are taking the bait from 45. One thing I have seen on the forum over the last several years is he does not want to help anyone. I worked with a guy that was the same way. He knew it all and would not tell anyone anything. Yet when it came right down to it, he was all air.

[Love Life]

I have officially laughed out loud.

[45 2.1]

I can't believe you guys are taking the bait from 45. One thing I have seen on the forum over the last several years is he does not want to help anyone. I worked with a guy that was the same way. He knew it all and would not tell anyone anything. Yet when it came right down to it, he was all air.

Been on the forum for a long time I see... all 3 and a half years. Had you done some research in the archives, you would see what they are asking for. Most everyone here that have learned how had some help. I'm from the old school where one basically learned it himself the hard way or from some mentor. Some of us have been here since Shooters was on... that has been a while ago, some 15 years ago in fact. We won't spoon feed people that won't do some work to find out what is what. The information is here on this forum.... look for it!

[45 2.1]

Does anyone have any idea about what year(s) or decade(s) the Navy wax was reportedly made and delivered to USN?

That information is on the Beyond 5.56 forum along with some other pertinent data about it. As far as year, that would be about 1950.

[MBTcustom]

Same goods, different marketplace.

[onceabull]

Love Life laughed out loud. I am from the old Shooter's board,and I've been laughing for YEARS... Onceabull

[geargnasher]

If you're in the market for....well, you know what.

The wax was sold as "beeswax", the rest has all been an assumption based on that. Yes, the Navy used a lot of real beeswax. They also use other things. The stuff in question here still does not appear to be actual beeswax. A wax meeting those specifications and the appearance/description of the Navy wax was just tested this morning and failed by 85 degrees to meet the same anti-scorch properties of the Navy wax. So the search for the proper wax goes on, with nothing but smoke and mirrors all around.

Gear