chainfire/crossfire question

[Idz]

I've been reading about chainfires in blackpowder revolvers and most of the reports are either second(3rd,4th...)-hand or vague on detail. Some insist chainfire is caused by loose caps while others are just as insistent its a loose or unlubed ball, some even say its a myth. In order to understand what is going on would those who experienced chainfire be willing to share complete details? Such as what gun, what powder, ball size and hardness, which cap, wad used?, lube used?, weather?,any damage?, or whatever else they think is important.

Chainfires appear to be a rare event and cause little damage but it is an interesting mystery.

thanks

[johnson1942]

recoil must be awesome.

[smkummer]

I had a few with my Ruger Old Model Army. It always appeared when I went too light on the grease, is when I would get a chain fire. I was casting my bullets with a repro brass mold that made both a conical and round ball that was undersized at close to .451. Ruger recommended .457 and that might have made all the difference. I now have the correct size round ball mold but have not shot the gun in maybe 10 years. When it chain fired, often I could not tell. Until I cocked and the next chamber did not fire.

[MadHamster]

Chainfire happens when a way too undersize ball ur conical with no grease is used, you can see for yourself here(second half-ish of the video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne4VgCdAy7Y

[Battis]

I've had two cross/chainfires, two different .36 revolvers, both while shooting .380 balls cast in a damaged mold that produced irregularly shaped roundballs. Crisco over the balls did not help. There was enough of a gap between the poorly cast balls and cylinder walls that, apparently, sparks were able to sneak by. Each time, the second ball exited the cylinder at a 45 degree angle and basically dropped to the ground. No extra recoil, just some extra flash. Cap end or ball end? These two times it was definitely ball end.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've never had a chain fire event in a cap & ball revolver. With a proper fitting ball I don't see how it would be possible from the front of the cylinder. When you seat the ball, a small ring of lead is sheared off. Maybe with a very poorly fitted projectile it could occur but I think the event is greatly exaggerated.

[Bent Ramrod]

I've had two chain fires, both two-shots. One with a Navy Arms 1860 Army using .451" balls and #11 caps and one with a Flli Pietta Starr revolver using .451" balls and #11 caps. No wads in either case. In both cases I had neglected or forgotten to put grease across the cylinder mouths. In both cases a small ring of lead came off as I swaged the ball into the cylinder over the powder charge.

I've fired a lot of the Ideal 450229 hollow base, with the grooves filled with lubricant. They swage into the chambers without leaving any lead rings. I've not used extra grease on the cylinder mouths, figuring the lube in the grooves was enough sealant. Never a chain fire.

I use whatever size caps I can find at the time and often have to pinch them to make them fit or find they seat hard on the nipples of whatever revolver I'm playing with. In my (extensive) experience with them, poorly fitting caps either fall off the nipples before the cylinder indexes around or I have to snap on them once to seat them and then around again to fire them. But I've never gotten chain fires from poorly fitting caps, only from the lack of grease on the round balls.

[GhostHawk]

I'm like Bent ramrod, I've had 2 chain fires both on a .36 cap and ball loading .375 round balls. Both before I started greasing my balls.

Both cases no damage, but scared as heck. So I started greasing my balls and no more chain fires.

I would agree that you want a fairly tight fitting cap, but both times the cap on mine did not go off. Powder was ignited past the ball.

[Good Cheer]

That fluidized mass of burning sulfur and molten salt peter is atomized and riding a pressure wave out of the cylinder to barrel gap while combustion is ongoing and it wants to go every where.

Mid seventies, brass frame .44 1851 model. Big brother forgot the grease. Never forgot the grease again. Never had another multiple chamber ignition. Well, yet.

[desi23]

I don't believe a chain fire is possible from the front with correctly sized balls. If a full ring of lead is shaved off it's going to be hard for the flash to get past the ball to the powder. Undersized or damaged balls it would be possible though. This discussion comes up regularly on the Traditional Muzzle loader forum and some people have done a bit of research and ill fitting caps seem to be to blame most of the time. I have had it happen to me a couple of times and both times I had brought #11 caps with guns that were sized for a #10 cap. While I had used the larger caps before, squeezing them to get them to stay in place these two times I had chain fires. I know that the round balls were the right size and shaving a full ring off when loading so that really only leaves the caps being ignited by the flash to account for it.

I have used both of these guns since, with balls from the same mold and the correct #10 caps many times since and have never had a repeat instance. No damage was done to either gun, only to my nerves! The balls went off the edge of the barrel frame and landed on the ground a few feet in front of me. There was a bit of powder fouling and a little bit of lead smear that was all. Oh, the caps were gone from the chambers that fired (only two in the one case and only one in the other). I am sure that it was a poorly fitting cap that caused my experience.

[waksupi]

I've had it happen probably 3 times over the years. Each time the common factor was not greasing the chamber mouths.

From this video, I can see where loose fitting caps could be a definite problem.

[Petrol & Powder]

Waksupi - That was a very informative video. Thank you.

[Theditchman]

I had a chain fire once...I was very new to cap and ball revolvers and was banging away at an old indoor range when it happened..I was loading up with powder..overwad then ball and all was going ok. Then I realized I had run out of overwads and I thought because the ball seemed very tight that I would try without the wads...I fired the pistol from the waist and on the first shot there was an almighty explosion in my hand..I dropped the pistol..my hand felt like it had been hit with a baseball bat..I was too frightened to look down at my hand..i thought that at least 4 fingers had gone flying down range..I almost made a fudge factory out of my fruit of the looms...finally I forced my eyes down and was overwhelmed with relief when I saw a complete, black shaking hand still attached to me....the lesson I learned was "Don't take short cuts" All 6 chambers had gone off together..The funny thing was the pistol still worked afterwards although it took a little longer for the hand

[doc1876]

all of my chain fires, and yes there have been many, were from muzzle side of cylinder caused by no grease. Now you must understand that all of these happened while at a reenactment, so there were no balls, and while reloading 4+ revolvers on horseback under fire, you WILL make mistakes.
The only cap related instances were when the things fell off,I do know that there were no chain fires here, as the pistol just went click, and when I re-applied new caps, we were back in business. So they did not contribute to chain fires, as there were none. While my memory is growing short, over 40 years of reenacting, I do remember these things.

[Idz]

Sounds like majority opinion on this forum is muzzle end chainfire. Is real blackpowder more likely to chainfire than substitutes? Its hard to understand how a flash can get past a ball that fits tightly. There must be some defect in the ball, cylinder, or loading that opens a gap. Maybe then powder that is too dusty can fill the hole? Are reduced loads (25gr powder in a 44) less likely to chainfire because they are recessed from the front making powder cleaning easier and a harder path for the flame front?
Its true you don't hear stories of the old timers having chainfire problems, but then that was before the nanny state and if it didn't damage gun or shooter then folks were probably told to stop whining and reload.

[Hellgate]

Some chambers will have a slight ledge from machining the cylinder face flush. Chamfering the chamber mouths eliminates this overhang. Chambers with the overhang will still "shave a perfect ring of lead" but the ball now has few thou of little contact with the larger diameter chamber. A wad or enough grease will fill the gap. Some chain fires in brass framed guns can occur from the rear when the recoil ring gets battered enough that the cylinder can recoil farther and farther to the rear until the caps strike the recoil shield and go off. I do find it hard to believe that flame can go around corners on poorly fitting caps to get down the flash hole to set of chain fires from the rear. I can see that happening if the poorly fitting cap falls off under recoil and flame could get into an adjacent nipple.

[dondiego]

I just recently fired a charge on both sides of an uncapped nipple that was over a loaded chamber. It did not crossfire even with the nipple completely exposed. I have experienced a crossfire from an unlubed cylinder.

[Maven]

Several years ago the Bevel Bro's. (Bevel Up/Bevel Down) writing in the NMLRA's "Muzzle Blasts," demonstrated pretty convincingly that chain fires were iniitated by a poor fit between cap and nipple. However, a poorly fitted and ungreased ball has got to be a contributing factor too. Ergo, a poor cap-nipple fit + a poor ball-cylinder relationship sans lube seems to be a recipe for a chain fire.

[dondiego]

Several years ago the Bevel Bro's. (Bevel Up/Bevel Down) writing in the NMLRA's "Muzzle Blasts," demonstrated pretty convincingly that chain fires were iniitated by a poor fit between cap and nipple. However, a poorly fitted and ungreased ball has got to be a contributing factor too. Ergo, a poor cap-nipple fit + a poor ball-cylinder relationship sans lube seems to be a recipe for a chain fire.

I didn't have a poor fit between cap and nipple, I had no fit. There was NO cap at all on the nipple of the loaded chamber! The shots fired on each side of the uncapped, loaded chamber did not make it go off on either shot.

[cwheel]

I had one in a 36 navy. It had poorly fit caps on the nipples and the 3 charges that fired at once sure got my attention. Something else going on here is the loading sequence. Lets look at the instructions Ruger uses for the ROA. Talks about charging the cylinder and seating the ball before capping. I always load with the barrel pointed straight up as most do. In this process, I always see a small bit of powder come through the nipple when done with all 6 holes. That loose powder on the cap end of the cylinder is asking for even more flash. Guess those folks loading on a loading stand and off the revolver won't have this problem. Lately I've capped first, then powder, wad and ball. Notice that stopped any loose powder from passing through while loading. Of course the other way is safer, not to be loading a capped cylinder, but I think the powder passing through the nipple sure adds to the chance of a crossfire.
Chris