When is a wait to long?

[GoodOlBoy]

I know I am a newer member on the site, although I have been lurking for years. But I have to ask. When is the wait for a product too long? Molds with no known buy date, and when a buy date finally comes (a year or more after you sign up from what I have seen) out you have a year to 18 months to wait for them? Ar lowers that people wait 2 to 8 years to get?

I know good quality custom work takes time. But I have known traditional muzzleloader builders who even make their own barrels that can get you a custom rifle in six months to eight months!

If I told a customer they had to pay a premium price, for a premium item, AND they had to wait a year to find out that they were going to have to wait more than a year to get the item..... I just don't know of many other industries that can get away with those kind of time frames.

I dunno, maybe I am wound up over nothing, but my patience for time frames on a project doesn't allow for these kinda of wait times. I mean hey! We are all going to die someday, and how do I know I will ever even GET the items if it takes 2-8 years?

GoodOlBoy

[Love Life]

It is up to the purchaser. For a one off item then I can handle a long wait. For something like an AR rifle or part then I only buy in stock. Besides, Gunbroker usually has long wait items available for a small upcharge.

[HeavyMetal]

Maybe this will put it in prospective:

I deal in Tymco street sweepers, as well as warehouse sized machines, wait time on the warehouse sweepers is 4 to 8 weeks wait time on the Tymco's is 9 to 12 months after the order is placed.

My understanding is Crown forklift has an 28 to 36 month wait but I am not a Crown dealer so it's just what I hear in the industry. Other lift truck dealers are about the same.

Hope that helps out.

[338RemUltraMag]

Let me add to this, making a bullet mold consists of much more than puting funny holes in metal. There is a lot that needs done to make sure you can get a repeatable and accurate product. Right now my molds are slow because of my cherry maker but as soon as I get a cherry in we can have a batch of molds cut in 5 days.I think that we are a tiny drop in the machining industry and because so it takes time. I am trying to source more than one cherry maker but good luck getting a grinder to make complex and one off cherries with a decent turn OR decent price.

[GoodOlBoy]

338RemUltraMag I know molds are a precise and complicated process, and I know they have to be made just right, and they take custom cherries, etc. I know all that, and my comment about the mold waits wasn't referring to you in any form or fashion. But if I right now said I had 15 people waiting to do a group buy on a mold type you have already made in the past (IE a re-run), would it really take you a year to get to the point where you would be notifying us that the mold would be made in a year and a half? I have watched some of your buys and runs, as well as the others, and I don't see ridiculous wait times on your lists.

Wait times on heavy custom machinery I can understand as well. But I am not asking for a forty ton automated bullet casting machine with custom molds to drop thousands of rounds an hour. I am talking about a 2 cav, or single cav mold. I have worked in a machine shop in my early college days as a hydro pressure vessel tester. If a customer had come to us with a vessel and said I need this how long will it take and how much will it cost, and we told them we will let you know in a year or two how much it is going to cost and how many years it is going to take to do it..... We would have been out of business in a week!

I know alot of the mold makers do GREAT work on here. I am SO envious of the guys who DO have their molds. And EVERY one of the makers I have spoke to via pm has been GREAT to deal with. I also know sometimes it's a small one man op going on, and you can only do what you can do. I also know health goes bad, machinery breaks, and somebody has to make cherries and other materials. I understand all that. But I am starting to wonder if the whole issue isn't from the small scale makers end, but from those ramrodding the show and trying to shove WAY to much down the pipe at a time. Honestly I don't know how the mold makers on here have time to BREATH looking at the group buy lists. I think that is part of where the frustration comes in for me. I would rather the group buys be started a few months in advance of that round of making than YEARS in discussion before YEARS in buy then being made. But that is from a customer standpoint. Heck I don't know maybe the makers themselves prefer the log jam, and if so I can understand the comfort in knowing there is more work waiting in the pipeline. But I am also seeing the sheer number of others, like me, who start backing out because we had the money a year ago, now we don't, or we just don't want to wait.

To all the mold Makers on the site. Please this frustration is not aimed at you guys! It is aimed at the process that we the customers have to sometimes slog through. Thanks for all you guys do for us, and all the help you give us in getting our dream boolit made into a reality.

GoodOlBoy

[searcher4851]

I reckon some folks just aren't in as much of a hurry. I've perused the group by special molds at times too, and kinda wondered myself about the wait times, but just figured that some things in life are just worth waiting for. I've never experienced an emergency need for a new custom mold, but I do understand really wanting to try one out sooner than later. If the wait time is too long, or unknown, I just don't sign up if I'm not willing to wait.

[mold maker]

Most of the time your getting custom stuff that the maker has become a victim of his own success. Starting out as a hobby that rapidly becomes a full time job, done while still working a reg job, has happened time after time here.
In order to profit from it, you must have a big enough order, to justify the expenditure in materials, tooling, and time. By the time your reputation for quality is in place, and a list of orders accumulated (to justify the tooling) at least several months have passed. Then you get or make, or order, the tooling and materials. This also takes time. Production of complicated items like HP molds, is very complicated and time consuming.
The stock items that are immediately available from Midway, Lyman, LEE, or who ever, had the same lead time involved, but in a shop dedicated to that product, over a long period of time. They are produced in quantity, shelved, and waiting for orders.
If immediate satisfaction is what you desire, stay away from custom made items. If specialized custom work is what you seek, be prepared to wait however long it takes.

[Beagle333]

Just keep watchin' for that invoice.

[theperfessor]

I am surprised at the reasonable cost that many makers charge for GBs. A shop with the technology and skilled workers to make bullet molds can probably make other products with higher profit margins that cause less grief in customer interactions.

Wait times aside, I agree with the sentiment that as far as tools and equipment are concerned this is a great time to be a bullet caster.

[CWME]

For group buys and stuff like that I go into the transaction knowing that I will have to sit patiently for the item to be made. The stuff that makes me boil is ordering an in stock item and it takes multiple e-mails and harrassing the seller to get them to ship the item. I ordered an IN stock AR-15 barrel coming up on 4 weeks ago this Monday. Last communication was an excuse about the bolts needed to come back from heat treat. Item was listed as in stock and the shipping time was stated to be one week. Starting to wonder if I am ever going to see that barrel.

[338RemUltraMag]

338RemUltraMag I know molds are a precise and complicated process, and I know they have to be made just right, and they take custom cherries, etc. I know all that, and my comment about the mold waits wasn't referring to you in any form or fashion. But if I right now said I had 15 people waiting to do a group buy on a mold type you have already made in the past (IE a re-run), would it really take you a year to get to the point where you would be notifying us that the mold would be made in a year and a half? I have watched some of your buys and runs, as well as the others, and I don't see ridiculous wait times on your lists.

Wait times on heavy custom machinery I can understand as well. But I am not asking for a forty ton automated bullet casting machine with custom molds to drop thousands of rounds an hour. I am talking about a 2 cav, or single cav mold. I have worked in a machine shop in my early college days as a hydro pressure vessel tester. If a customer had come to us with a vessel and said I need this how long will it take and how much will it cost, and we told them we will let you know in a year or two how much it is going to cost and how many years it is going to take to do it..... We would have been out of business in a week!

I know alot of the mold makers do GREAT work on here. I am SO envious of the guys who DO have their molds. And EVERY one of the makers I have spoke to via pm has been GREAT to deal with. I also know sometimes it's a small one man op going on, and you can only do what you can do. I also know health goes bad, machinery breaks, and somebody has to make cherries and other materials. I understand all that. But I am starting to wonder if the whole issue isn't from the small scale makers end, but from those ramrodding the show and trying to shove WAY to much down the pipe at a time. Honestly I don't know how the mold makers on here have time to BREATH looking at the group buy lists. I think that is part of where the frustration comes in for me. I would rather the group buys be started a few months in advance of that round of making than YEARS in discussion before YEARS in buy then being made. But that is from a customer standpoint. Heck I don't know maybe the makers themselves prefer the log jam, and if so I can understand the comfort in knowing there is more work waiting in the pipeline. But I am also seeing the sheer number of others, like me, who start backing out because we had the money a year ago, now we don't, or we just don't want to wait.

To all the mold Makers on the site. Please this frustration is not aimed at you guys! It is aimed at the process that we the customers have to sometimes slog through. Thanks for all you guys do for us, and all the help you give us in getting our dream boolit made into a reality.

GoodOlBoy

I was only giving some enlightenment from our side of the fence, a lot of guys would prefer to run 24/7 but the way we wait for cherries and like the professor said skilled man hours make this profitable but not as much as one would think. I do this mainly for the love of shooting cast bullets... No namby pamby BS there it really is a labor of love to make and see molds being used.

[FISH4BUGS]

For those of us that collect and shoot machine guns, there was a vendor that did a belt fed upper for your M16 lower. (The Shrike) Great idea. He solicited $2000 deposits, lots of people sent the money, and 8, yes, 8 years later released the product. This was after having demo units at machine gun shoots, some people go theirs at about 6 years (blatant favoritism) and he made many refunds.
8 years.....THAT'S a long wait! he didn't answer emails, phone calls, threats of lawsuits, or anything. If you complained too much he sent a refund.
So only a year????????

[Moonie]

Always go into group buys knowing it can take years to get your product. I, like most in the forum are fine with long wait times as long as there is good communication on what to expect. 338RemUltraMag, your turn around times are amazing compared to some of the others that have been doing it longer. This is precisely because of their success and I have molds by NOE and Miha, amazing molds from these makers, and I believe I am still signed up for at least one more from NOE. I look forward to getting it, but if it isn't for another year I'm ok with that because I knew that going in. All of our makers put out amazing product that are certainly worth the wait at an amazing price for the custom workmanship involved.

Where the makers we have truly prove themselves isn't in their product, it is in support of their product. Every custom maker we have in the forum has had issues with product, we are all human, they have all gone above and beyond to make it right for us.

[gwpercle]

That depends on two things. How badly you want a particular item and how much patience you have .
Now I like hand forged and custom made Randall Knives. I have placed an order with a wait time of 48 months. That's four YEARS. But I really wanted this knife, made to my specifications, hand forged in the USA. And I have a lot of patience . Was it worth the wait? To me it was, It's a knife I can't order off the net and I've ordered more than a few , from Randall, where the wait is measured in more than a year.
Patience seems to be in very short supply these days . People demand everything right now with no waiting.
Mom always said that " patience is a virtue", not too many understand what that means.
Don't want to wait for a custom mould to be made? By a Lee and be happy with it.
Gary

[captaint]

This certainly is a terrific time to be a caster of boolits. If you like custom molds, that is. We have a handful of custom mold makers that do extremely fine work. Sometimes we have to wait for that work. Sometimes not. I have signed up for group buys knowing I was in for a long wait. Hey, they don't want the money up front. I just kinda forget about it. I've lived this long without said mold - what's another year or so ?? Some of these suppliers pretty much cut their teeth right here, making molds for us. Growing along the way. They have provided great product for us and given great customer service. I'm very happy we have them and if I have to wait sometimes, oh well. I guess I'm a loyalty guy. Mike

[GhostHawk]

Somewhere way back in the misty past I somehow figured out that most of those group buys are taking a LONG time to

A get organized
B get an invoice out
C get a total for materials needed
D actually make the item in question.
E actually ship the item.

I'm currently "experimenting" with a gas check buy. Price was better than ordering copper gas checks from Hornady via Midway or similar.
But if I had ordered them commercially they would have been here within a week.

I have an order in, finally got a receipt, made payment, and now sit and wonder. Gas checks going to be here next week? Next month? Next year?

Which is in large part is why I have stayed totally away from group buys.

I know, we are an instant gratification society. I can wait for something if it is worth the wait, or if it saves me significant $. But when dealing with reloading supply's we all would like to know when what we are waiting for is coming.

So I'll tell you Goodolboy IMO your best bet is to make the best of it, go buy a lee mold and make do with that until your "good" mold arrives.

Leaves you in the best possible situation.

Meantime I sitting here watching the copper checks level left decrease, going "how did I go through 700 gas checks in a few months???"
And wondering will the checks I have ordered arrive this year?

[MBTcustom]

When is a wait too long?
When settling for quick, cheap, and sloppy is good enough for you. (read Lee, and Lyman)

Now for me, I don't buy MiHeck molds because I don't want to wait 2 years for one. They are absolutely superb, but I just don't need that much quality. The makers like NOE, Accurate, and ACE are also superb, and they can deliver to me while I'm still young enough to see my sights LOL!
I would rather pay a higher price and get it here sooner, but that's just me.
For instance, I just bought a nice brass twicebore from Accurate. I ordered on Friday. It's sitting on my bench now (Thursday) that's what I'm talkin about! WooHoo!

[southpaw]

It doesn't take that long to make the moulds. It takes that long to be first in line. They have been swamped with orders over the past few years. Both Al and Miha have gone full time and upgraded their facilities.

If you want instant gratification there are other manufactures that can help you out. If the quality is to be the same expect the price to be higher.

I am surprised that no one has mentioned the long wait times for the lee group buys, then having to send them back because they were not to spec and then waiting another year. If I remember correctly you had to pay for them up front.

I don't mind the wait so much. Most of the time I don't jump in until it is closer to the end, mostly because I just picked up a gun to try that boolit in.

Don't expect the same quality from a non custom maker.

Jerry Jr.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Wait times are long, but usually by the time payment is required the wait is only a month or so.

[Springfield]

The wait is too long when you can get the same item somewhere else for the same price, but sooner. If you can't then you have to wait. Simple.