Can we discuss primers?

[1874Sharps]

I agree with those above who go with the manufacture's recommendations on the subject of which primer is needed with a specific load or powder. They certainly have done much more sophisticated study than I will have or ever would be equipped to do. Some loads in the manuals have special notes connected with them and I follow the instructions therein.

[Messy bear]

Oh boy can we!
We did pressure testing at a lab a few yrs back with 45 colt and 500 linebaugh. It sure opened some eyes!
We used Enforcer and WC-820 powders with 310gr boolits in the colt. Conformal was the method of test.
The Win LP was the softest and developed about 23000 psi with somewhat erratic ignition.
The CCI 350 was by far the hottest and developed about 35000 and change maybe closer to 36000psi with normal igition based on extreme spreads.
All other primers were in between in pressure and velocity.
Later at home we did "real world" testing or what we refer to as field testing with a revolver. All were 10 shot strings loaded the same as at the lab. We saw the same tendency with the win being weak and the 350 hottest with others filling the gap.
A small article was published in Handloader by Brian Pierce s

[Messy bear]

Maybe some of you saw the article awhile back.
Conclusion- 12000psi is enough to get you into dangerous territory fast! Dont just substitute a standard with a mag unless you adjust powder. 32000 psi is what most consider a safe max for a stock large frame Ruger in 45 colt.

[44man]

I must have made a few hundred tests with the .44 in all weather conditions and the standard was always better. Even in bitter cold. Primer fire is what lights powder, not pressure. The WLP works very well in the .45 Colt but not so much in the .44.
Nothing but accuracy and reliability and groups prove it. Since all of my .44's would do 1/2" at 50 meters and my old SBH still does 3/4" and 1-1/4" at 100, but will not with a mag primer.
It is true groups get larger in the cold but mag primers in the .44 were always larger by a great deal. If you think a tighter crimp solves it, I have news. Tests done with 296 shooting single shot with NO crimp shot the same as the right crimp with no failures.
I did not test for fun, I tested to WIN and to kill deer. I won Ohio state IHMSA with 79 out of 80, missed the last ram, my fault being ragged out. I shot hundreds of 40 out of 40's with Fed 150's. 296 ALL. International class with all guns from revolvers to single shots. Went from unclassified to International quicker then anyone. Shot Ozark, Lima, bellfountane, Youngstown, Quantico, Piedmont and PA. Nobody beat me.
If you sit at the bench, learn to load by thinking, you will be farther ahead. The gun itself is not your answer. Poor loading practices are still where trouble starts. My Ruger beat all revolvers even with the junk sights.
I actually have BR collar dies for the .44 but found Hornady dies as good with less work. Use your RCBS or "M" expanders and expect 4" to 6" at 25 yards, then think you are good to go. I shot pop cans at 200 yards.
Reason is I learned the revolver and what it needs. Look at your Ruger, then think you can do better with a custom for $3000 or use a mag primer, come shoot with me.
Sorry Larry, if a standard primer fails, it is YOU.

[243winxb]

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01...motaip_200909/ Make note that in large pistol primers, Win. & Rem. only make one each. WLP does it all.

[44man]

Did you take note of this? Strange an old, poor coot like me found that long ago. I forget, the .44 has a HUGE case to absorb all that.
Too Much Primer
You can have too much primer. When the output gas volume of the primer approaches that of the cartridge case, sometimes special handling is required. I remember when CCI was working with some experimental primers for 9mm Luger, and we started seeing odd time-pressure curves on the computer. Instead of the normal single peak, we saw two. One QA tech commented that it looked like the dual humps of a Bactrian camel.

It was a classic case of high gas volume but too little temperature. The primer’s extra gas unseated the bullet while still trying to light off the main charge, producing one peak. Then the bullet retarded as it engaged the rifling, creating the second peak. Although a shooter would never notice this in a production firearm, that double hump was worrisome, and we abandoned that mix.

Read more: http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01...#ixzz3871FnsBs

[44man]

Unseat a boolit and see how good you can shoot. Cast will unseat easier then jacketed due to lube and less lead friction.
A mag primer still has too much gas volume for the .44.
The man that knows calls it a classic case. I have little to say about his expertise. But I still do here.
Maybe you better research every one of my posts.

[Larry Gibson]

Use your RCBS or "M" expanders and expect 4" to 6" at 25 yards, then think you are good to go.

Sorry Larry, if a standard primer fails, it is YOU.

Sorry but my Rugers (32 H&R, .357, .41 and .44 magnums) all shoot far less than 4-6" at 25 yards. And I use magnum primers with some powders in the .357, .41 and .44 and standard primers with other powders. All of my die sets have the expander and I use it. I have loaded w/o the expander, based on your advise, and with the softer alloys I use the bullets get severely resized and deformed. That does absolutely nothing for accuracy BTW.

One thing you fail to realize with your "one size fits all" is you use heavy bullets and they are hard cast. Both contribute to uniform and consistent ignition with standard primers (in revolvers) under slower ball powders because the inertia of the heavier bullet is much greater. However, us poques out here in the rest of the world use light and standard weight bullets in such revolver cartridges. In the .44 for example 180 - 250 gr. With those the difference in ignition with 296 and H110 between a standard and magnum level primer is noticeable and measureable. The results you get are very well different than what we get because we don't use the same components you use. Not everyone does what you do, ergo the difference.

I do not criticize your loading abilities. No one asked for "how to do it" but a "discussion" was asked for. That means we should all be able to add our 2 cents worth w/o personal attacks or criticism. Be nice if you just presented your case w/o the personal BS. You have no idea of my reloading skills and shooting abilities. I do not claim to shoot as well with a handgun as you do. If you want to find out abut my reloading/casting abilities you are welcome to come out here anytime to find out. But be prepared to demonstrate your own abilities, especially the shooting claims.....fair enough?

Larry Gibson

[Scharfschuetze]

Thanks for posting that link 243winxb. I found it most illuminating in regards to CCI primers and some of their history. It certainly debunks a few old urban legends about their product.

I found this paragraph interesting. It's by the same ballistician and the same article that 44man quotes in a previous post.

"We tested loads at both maximum normal pressures and at the starting loads (some labs calculate start loads—we shot them). Standard primers caused no ignition issues at the max load but posted higher extreme variations in pressure and velocity in the lower pressure regimes of the start loads. In extreme cases, the start loads produced short delayed firings—probably in the range of 20 to 40 milliseconds but detectible to an experienced ballistician. Switching that propellant to a Magnum primer smoothed out the performance across the useful range of charge weights and completely eliminated the delays.

If I’ve recommended a Magnum primer in reloading data I’ve developed, it’s because my lab results show it’s needed."


My take away from the sum of the article? Use the proper tool for the job. I've always been well served by that common sense approach to loading for accuracy and for performance, whether I'm loading for game, plinking or competition. Given that, I'll keep both types of primers on hand.

[beezapilot]

Well, .429 I was scrolling down for just that. When I cleaned out my Father's shop there were a significant pile of .44 Mag reloads, they were loaded with 2400- Now I grant you that they were a good 10 years old, but I gave up on them after 4 rounds out of my 29. They "Popped" and I'm surprised that they slug cleared the barell, and there was unburned powder all over the place. I thought the powder had just expired, now I'm wondering if standard rather than magnum primers may have had some blame for the failure.

[44man]

Why do you need soft boolits or hollow points in the .44?
Most of my shooting was with 240 gr bullets with 296. The hornady SIL at 23.5 gr of 296 but the XTP at 24 gr. You blame heavy boolits, not true at all. I like them for deer, true. But the 240 did best, never smaller. 180's are a joke. My IHMSA shoots were with 240's. I made heavy cast shoot from work, not theory.
How can you say my primer worked only with heavy?
Now you step on yourself, NEVER did I say to not expand. I said do not expand too much and soft is a waste of time. You ruin a boolit. Soft lead with a crimp is sized because it will not open the crimp and gets scraped. So many think a neck "POPS" open all at once, are you nuts? necks expand after the bullet leaves from pressure, NOT BEFORE. The boolit opens crimp. Your soft is sized when seating and again when the crimp does not open.
See any crimp left on brass and you did wrong.
i have not shot cast in rifles for years but used to get 3/4" at 100 with open sights using a 25-20 or .348, now have been to 1/4" at 100 with a new 30-30 marlin. I guess I am nuts.
Mods don't like it but how about showing yourself. I do not challenge. Not right but some should see some proof. Have you ever in your life shot 1/2" at 100 with a revolver?
Your failures are yours alone.
I want to see a pure lead group from your .44 at 100 yards.
i work for all, need nothing but to allow a man to shoot better with safety. Sometimes you scare me with what you tell others. Look inward for once. Just what do you tell others? My feeling is you want praise over respect.
I might get in trouble but I think about all here, good people. They need truth, not some fantasy.
I have been kind to you but there is a limit and I might get tossed. You are too aggressive. You find fault with everything.
You can not dispute the "too much primer" thing by someone with much more experience because it makes you look little. Yet you claim to know more. This stupid old fart knew that before you were born.
You say not to criticize OURS, who is "OURS"? Seems to be yours only. I have never seen anything from you but you discount my pictures and admit you can't do it. Could it be you are wrong? You do not know if I handed you my revolver, you would shoot better then you ever have in your life. You can't get it through that it is NOT ME, My friends refuse to use anything but what I use. 1/2" groups from a new SBH Hunter, out of box at 50. 150 yard deer with my loads in the .44 SRH. Not me. bring your .44 loads here and I can tell you what primer you use. How sad is that?

[44man]

Well, .429 I was scrolling down for just that. When I cleaned out my Father's shop there were a significant pile of .44 Mag reloads, they were loaded with 2400- Now I grant you that they were a good 10 years old, but I gave up on them after 4 rounds out of my 29. They "Popped" and I'm surprised that they slug cleared the barell, and there was unburned powder all over the place. I thought the powder had just expired, now I'm wondering if standard rather than magnum primers may have had some blame for the failure.

Not at all. you did not state storage or humidity. long ago I loaded shotgun shells for a neighbor, Paper shells and he kept them in the humid basement. Shells swelled and he blamed me.
I am shooting rounds loaded over 20 years ago Outside influence is your problem. 2400 can't do that and a standard is best.

[btroj]

Guys, let it go. You two obviously have differing views, a public harangue isn't gonna solve anything.

I know which side I'm on but that isn't important. I go based on my own experience and what my guns have shown they prefer. Everyone else should do likewise.

[.429]

Well, .429 I was scrolling down for just that. When I cleaned out my Father's shop there were a significant pile of .44 Mag reloads, they were loaded with 2400- Now I grant you that they were a good 10 years old, but I gave up on them after 4 rounds out of my 29. They "Popped" and I'm surprised that they slug cleared the barell, and there was unburned powder all over the place. I thought the powder had just expired, now I'm wondering if standard rather than magnum primers may have had some blame for the failure.

Hmmm interesting. I lean towards moisture being the culprit. Did you disassemble them?

[beezapilot]

Humidity... yep... basement in CT. In my mind I would have thought that the seal between the slug & brass would have been tight enough to keep moisture out- but if the powder attracts moisture maybe not. I broke the rounds down, re-cast the lead, & discarded the powder. Just shows - you can always learn something here.

[Hamish]

Guys, let it go. You two obviously have differing views, a public harangue isn't gonna solve anything.

I know which side I'm on but that isn't important. I go based on my own experience and what my guns have shown they prefer. Everyone else should do likewise.

Respectfully, putting this, or any other subject connected to the furtherment of cast based knowledge, off limits for discussion, does a disservice to those who have less experience than you do.

Near as I can tell, no blood has been drawn, no one attacked, just hashing out where experience and hypotheses meet when the firing pin falls.

EDIT: The correlations between primer gas volume, primer flame temp., and cartridge interior void volume, especially how it affects the secondary pressurization of the case by powder burn was not something that occurred to me easily or early in my reloading, I don't think we can minimize how important this is in the equation.

[tek4260]

Using standard primers in my 44 vs magnum primers seems to have helped a pretty good bit. I tried them based on what Jim and others on other forums said. Now I save my magnum primers for the 475.

Also, FWIW, my loads are 23.0gr of H110 and the Lee 310 sized to .431 so I can use case neck tension and bullets seated long rather than excessive crimp.

I can't speak to primers and other powders like 2400 since I don't shoot mouse fart loads.

[Harter66]

So whats the comparison between say a CCI large pistol magnum and a No11 ML cap ?
Everything I've read says use magnum primers w/BP ,although plenty of shooters having fine success w/standards. I haven't shot much in cartridges. It seems like it should take a lot of fire to jump a half inch and make a 90* turn just to get to the powder in a side lock.In that same line of thought,is there test data for the assorted 209s for the inlines,Maybe something Savage shot ?

[btroj]

Hamish, I agree, to a point.

If these guys could just agree to disagree it would be great.

I personally agree with Jim. My own experience has shown me that mag primers don't stop ignition issues, better bullet pull does. Driving bullets from the barrel of my 44 mag SRH taught me this- the hard way.

Different strokes for different folks. We each should do the time at the loading and shooting bench to see what works for us. I don't care what works in guns owned by others, I am concerned with what works in mine.

I just grow tired of incessant bickering and needling.

[44man]

Thanks for posting that link 243winxb. I found it most illuminating in regards to CCI primers and some of their history. It certainly debunks a few old urban legends about their product.

I found this paragraph interesting. It's by the same ballistician and the same article that 44man quotes in a previous post.

"We tested loads at both maximum normal pressures and at the starting loads (some labs calculate start loads—we shot them). Standard primers caused no ignition issues at the max load but posted higher extreme variations in pressure and velocity in the lower pressure regimes of the start loads. In extreme cases, the start loads produced short delayed firings—probably in the range of 20 to 40 milliseconds but detectible to an experienced ballistician. Switching that propellant to a Magnum primer smoothed out the performance across the useful range of charge weights and completely eliminated the delays.

If I’ve recommended a Magnum primer in reloading data I’ve developed, it’s because my lab results show it’s needed."


My take away from the sum of the article? Use the proper tool for the job. I've always been well served by that common sense approach to loading for accuracy and for performance, whether I'm loading for game, plinking or competition. Given that, I'll keep both types of primers on hand.

The man is correct but it still comes down to case capacity and is exactly what I found with larger brass. There is a place for both primers. Once I get to the .454 with cut down .460 brass and a LP primer, standards fire loads but the mag is more accurate and the .475 and up NEED the LP mag.
Only testing in your gun will show you.
Even my .45 Colt with 335 gr boolits and 296 will thrive on a standard but the WLP has shown great accuracy but not a full mag. I call the Colt a tweener. Once you get larger, go to the mag primer.
Want to stick boolits? Use start loads of 296 in the .454 with SR primers. Too much pressure with no fire. Load manuals should eliminate start loads of H110 and 296 in the .454, only max is safe.
I keep a brass rod and hammer in my shooting bag. If you don't pay attention to the .454, you have a BOMB. yet a LP standard in the .454 will ignite every load but accuracy is best with a LP mag. Why does the thing use a SR primer? It was developed with duplex and triplex loads using Bullseye next to the primer. It was thought a LP would not take pressures. I have gone over 55,000 PSI with the Fed 155 without a flat primer. Why is the .460 not made for a SR primer?
The .475 parent brass is the 45-70 and has LR pockets, DON'T use them. Use LP mags.
The .500 S&W was made for LP primers but some used LR primers and had slam fires. You can use a LP mag in all S&W brass, just never put LR in the LP brass.