22 hornet, 25-20, 256, 32-20

[Bullshop]

Ted
I just mentioned the Whisper cartridges because they seemed to fit your requirements for shooting heavy for caliber bullets, small case, subsonic silence ability. When you stated those requirements the Whisper cartridges immediately came to mind.
I like the little cartridges too and have some experience with all the ones you mentioned. I had a Marlin 25/20 that I was very fond of. On what I knew would be my last visit with my adopted Dad he expressed a desire to have the rifle so it went home with him and it brought me pleasure to leave it with him.
Now I am expecting delivery of another to replace it any day. I do like the cartridge especially in the little lever gun. If I were to have any other action type and wanted a small case 25 cal and since I also have some very positive experience with the cartridge I would be looking at the 25 Copperhead. Since the longer 222 mag brass is now readily available in the form of the 204 Ruger I would also be looking closely at the 257 Kimber.

[bigted]

dan ... too much powder capacity i think. for my purpose i desire just about the case capacity of the 22 hornet or 25-20 so i can keep the case filled to the magical 100% loads. fraid that the larger 222/223 case capacity would deliver too much capacity and i would have a time finding that 100% load in a slow velocity speed i would like to stay in.

unless of course i miss understood the 25 copperhead case.

personally i like the lowly 22 long rifle for just the thing i want to do. it is the very best in size and power and there has been many meals provided on my table from that lowly quiet cartridge. another place where boolit placement is key. never had a runaway problem when hunting with a good 22 where i could call my shots every time up to 100 yds. i desire something just a step up from it and reloadable with cast boolits.

[Bullshop]

Oh well then you need look no further than the 22 Cooper. Fits that ticket perfectly. In my Cooper rifle I shoot the NEI #2 design at 45 gn as cast and I shoot it without the gas check loaded with 2gn AA#2 for 1330 fps. This is just slightly over the 22 LR performance since the boolit is a bit heavier and the average speed just slightly faster. It is ever so much more effective than the 22 LR due mostly to the flat nose design of the boolit. My mod. 38 Cooper on a calm day without wind will keep this load in a nickel at 100 yards.
Then if ever you want to you have the capability to go up in velocity to just a bit over what the 22 wmr will do about 2000 fps with the same boolit. The higher velocity loading does require the use of the gas check though for best accuracy. With the hotter load my rifle still does about 1.5 moa fairly consistently if I keep the QC high on my castings.

[Greg Skinner]

That Cooper does indeed sound interesting, but I can't say anything bad about my K Hornet. I've been loading cast bullets for it for over a year and have actually found it to be very flexible and easy to load for. I've used both the 40 gr round nose and also the 225415 flat nose. I've mostly PC'd the 225415, both with and w/o gc, running velocities all the way from 1050 to 2000 fps. These shoot about 1.5 moa at 100 yds even without the gc's. The thing I like most is that the higher velocity rounds group about the same as jacketed up to 100 yds., so I never have to mess around with adjusting my scope. I don't shoot much farther because my targets are generally between 40 and 80 yds. I like the subs for close range shots at starlings, etc. The thing that surprised me was the damage the flat nosed 225415 inflict at the 2000 fps velocity. They really blow up starlings at 50 - 60 yds. It is also very cheap to shoot. 7.2 gr. of Lil Gun gets me just shy of 2000 with the 55 grain flat nose and 2 grains of Green dot puts me right at the sub-sonic level. These days that's way less costly than 22lr rimfire.

I will say that I'm doubtful that the 1 - 14 twist would stablize any heavier boolit at sub-sonic velocities, so you are pretty much stuck at the 55 grain level for subs.

[enfield]

Your choice of boolits will be increased if you use a 303 barrel for your doner for 32-20 as it has a fast twist, for anything from a 115 gr to 200 gr, roughly a .314 bore and can be removed from a pre bubba'd Lee Enfield for cheap.

[Bullshop]

I know the hornet can be a very rewarding cartridge in an accurate rifle. I have had a couple accurate hornets but got burned out on the cartridge after 5 Ruger rifles that were less than fulfilling. Every so often I get the burning desire to have a Walther hornet but the price tag usually puts out the fire.
I have a set of dies for the 22 Squirrel which has about the same case capacity as the 22 Cooper but unlike the Cooper case the Squirrel is easily reformed from Hornet cases where the Cooper requires some swaging and lathe turning. If ever I cant get Cooper brass I will likely set my barrel back and re chamber for the Squirrel because I like the small case volume for 22 cal boolits.
Its very interesting that with the same boolit Lyman 225415 and 7gn Lil-Gun I get about 2000 fps from the Cooper too but that is an absolute max load for my rifle.

[quilbilly]

Some years back I traded for a 10" Contender 32-20 knowing nothing about the caliber but it was a screaming deal and I have a Contender addiction. Fast forward, it is far and away my favorite Contender pistol caliber, most accurate, and most versatile. It is more than adequate for any game up to 80# and under 80 yards away using the Lee 113 gr GC boolit at 1400 fps and coyotes a lot farther away if my old eyes will focus (yeah, right, in my dreams). In a terminal ballistics test in wet phone books I got 17+inches of penetration at 40 yards with that boolit along with fine expansion.

[nanuk]

use whichever one you can get brass for....

hate to see you spend all your time on a project then have trouble with brass.

perhaps a wildcat based on a 30-30 or sump'n, with a LOONNNGGGG neck?

[richhodg66]

I've been messing with a Savage 219 in .22 Hornet as a small game rifle. I wanted something to replace a .22 LR and so far had good luck with the Lyman 225438, sized to .225 and tumbled in LLA (no gas check) in front of 1.5 grains of Bullseye and a small pistol primer. Consistently groups 3/4" at 25 yards and is very quiet.


I've since picked up a Bator mold and hope that bullet shoots as well. This Fall, there are some fox squirrels that will be in serious trouble when I get this rifle out.

[3leggedturtle]

For ease of finding brass I would do the 256. With one exception, I would prefer to have it made up on the full length 221FB case. You could either push the shoulder back to 256 length and have a longer neck or Just neck it up to have a little extra powder room. Realistically tho, a well made minimum dimension chamber for a 25/20 would be about the most economical for loading cast bullets.

[UBER7MM]

use whichever one you can get brass for....

hate to see you spend all your time on a project then have trouble with brass.

perhaps a wildcat based on a 30-30 or sump'n, with a LOONNNGGGG neck?

223 brass is the most available of that sized cartidge. 257-223 wildcat?

[35remington]

bt, I have to wonder if all the worrying about the welded lug on the Contender/Encore barrels is much ado about nothing. Firstly, we're talking about cartridges that deliver little barrel heat per shot, especially in slow subsonic iterations. Second, my custom Bullberry and OTT Contender barrels shoot so well that if the welded underlug is a handicap you'd have a hard time proving it with a jacketed bullet, let alone a cast one.

Anytime I want to make onlookers do a double take I load a 75 VMax in my 25-20 and shoot bugholes with it......that is, one somewhat enlarged hole, literally. The potential with cast bullets isn't as good, but I can do 0.6 inch with a plainbase bullet from 1100 to 1450 fps in my 1-10 twist barrel on demand. That's not for one group once in a while, but is a long term average over literally hundred of documented and filed away for posterity groups. This is at fifty yards.

If the welded underlug is holding me back, please explain how. Some of these barrels are in heat inducing cartridge sizes but that's not relevant here. You might want to call Fred Smith at Bullberry and tell him his welded underlugs are all wrong. I'm sure he could use something to liven up his day.

I second the notion of the non G2 Contender frame as ideal for these little cartridges. With a 22 inch heavy barrel the gun is still quite light and compact if stupidity in scope selection is avoided. In other words, no 4-12 X 56mm scopes. The rifle/carbine demands a small scope to make the handling and balance correct. Super high magnification and attendant large scope size is best avoided. Relatively low X's and small size will extract all the accuracy these cartridges have. I shoot the little bitty bugholes with a straight tube made in USA Burris of 4X. The rifle balances nicely and if I'm giving up accuracy you'll have a hard time proving it.

The multiple groups are with the RCBS 85 FN with 5.5/2400 and dacron for about 1300 fps. It will do as well a little faster than that, approximating the claimed ballistics for the jacketed factory load but at way less cost! It will also outshoot the jacketed factory load.
The other two photos are with a mess of squirrels. I'm a very avid small game hunter. I went to the 25-20 as I wanted a small game rifle that was adequate for called coyotes at the end of the day without me having to hike back to the truck to get it. It's already in my hands and I just fish a call out of my pocket.

The groups below the double bullseye are the bugholes.

[bigted]

35 rem ... that's some nice shooting and the squirrels make my mouth water as we used to burn em over a campfire with salt and lemon pepper on em and boy ... wish i could relive those days with all the easy stuff we did for fun and tryin to keep outta trouble.

you make a pretty good point and gives me a bit to cogitate on. i guess my luck with factory TC barrels has been pretty great at that. my 223 used to do those kinda groups as long as my fidgeting would stay calm. my 25-06 will do close to that at 100 ... but it is too much of a good thing and i desire something smaller to do exactly what you have accomplished.

as for the weld ... just my thinkin that to remove every doubt about a barrel ... that and the cost ... should guarantee a first rate barrel without any weld pull in the least. you do make a good point tho.

[35remington]

Yeah, I get you about the lemon pepper as I do that myself.

BTW......do NOT get a Contender Custom Shop 25-20. The rifle is chambered all wrong for best accuracy. My first 25-20 barrel was by them. I struggled with it for a while and finally sold it to a friend, who rechambered to a 25 Remington Rimmed, or 25-35 Improved. It was a 1-10 also. Stabilizes 117 RN's and shoots the 75 V Max well. Gets 2450 with the 117 RN and is a great woods range deer rifle. Best thing that ever happened to that barrel.

[olafhardt]

I keep wondering about a Handirifle in 22 Hornet. Could one also rebored to 25/20 or 32/20?

[35remington]

Sure.....but they are a lot heavier than a Contender like the one pictured above.

[Eutectic]

Interesting thread......

The .256 is indeed a good one. But as mentioned the short neck makes it a real challenge for cast..... So much so you may have to design your boolit and/or modify the chamber throat. That said I have a T/C .256 I have throated deeper and it will shoot Lyman #257420 like a house afire. The boolit (gascheck) is loaded to the base of the neck and just kisses the lands.

The older case designs with a lot of body taper along with a very gradual shoulder are a 'special' case in reloading.... ALL IN THE TITLE are of this design with the exception of the .256. The .25-20 a little less so shoulder-wise but the body taper is there.
Here, case sizing is critical......If you don't watch shoulder location carefully in sizing (especially the Hornet) you will get poor case life. I don't like 'neck' sizing dies! There's a good chance you neck and body will not be concentric with each other. The Redding neck dies are an exception (sometimes) as they will slightly body size as well. I set full length dies to a micrometer measured 'datum' line to a fired case's shoulder from the chamber I'm loading for. Some of the calibers mentioned in the title above I have multiple full length dies each set for a specific gun (chamber). I have 4 Hornets and 4 .25-20's as well! Maybe a pain, BUT I don't lose cases.... not even full power "J" word Hornets.

I like to varmint hunt! I love to varmint hunt with cast boolits! The .25-20 and .32-20 both excel here! I may hunt cottontails or blue grouse with either with light loads but my main usage is the old "W.H.V." equivalent loads. I have a pair of scoped Savage Model 23's.... one in .25-20 and the other in .32-20. They constantly fight over who's 'accuracy champion' Either will shot under minute of angle with their best cast boolit loads. Either will shoot cast (usually drilled) hollow points out of very soft alloy (1 in 35) to full power! These gaschecked bombs have terminal results you won't believe for these 'old guns and calibers'.
The .25-20 won't shoot a boolit over 77grs even at 1800fps IF YOU WANT THE UNDER MINUTE OF ANGLE ACCURACY! Those intimate with the .25-20 know its 1 in 14" twist is borderline at times. It's too bad Winchester and others didn't 'copy' Stevens back in the late 1800's. They rifled their .25-20 SS to 1 turn in 13"!!

Eutectic

[LtFrankDrebbin]

Time for a real long sit down and a big cup of coffee

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/re...reloaders.html

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/re...reloaders.html

[bigted]

Drebbin ... thanks for the links ... should be a great read when i get the time.

[35remington]

The slower twist in 25-20 should be an advantage with high velocity cast and I wouldn't mind a 1-14 for that. 1-14 should be no handicap and a benefit at speed. You should view LFD's stability tests when slowing down bullets in the links he provides on the 25-20. You just might be surprised what stays point forward and makes round holes at low speed. It's later in the thread.....to save searching over 90 plus pages.

I would go 1-12 if I had a choice. 1-10 is fine for low to midrange speeds but clearly loses something at high velocity with cast bullets. Jacketed don't care a bit at high speed in a 1-10.