Brownells barrel crowning tools. Quality? Ease of use? Results?

[yotatrd4x4]

Ok this is kinda long but here we go. I have an older Redhawk that's blued and 7.5 inch barrel. Gun is not a collectors piece as it's been shot a good bit and has some wear but no abuse. I really like the blued revolver over the stainless or I would just trade or sell it for a 4 inch model. I want to cut the barrel myself and face it then crown it at 4 inches. My Smith will cut a front dovetail for $50 as prices in Alaska for this work are high. I was gonna practice crowning and doing my own dovetail all by hand on the extra barrel length. I figure cut off the barrel close to 4 inches maybe 4.25 and I would cut the extra pice into roughly 3 inch sections to practice my work on before doing the barrel on the pistol. Anyhow do the brownells crown tools work? I read a lot about chatter but saw a lot of others say to use good cutting oil and also when done use some steel wool on the cutter to provide a cushion to keep from chattering then of course use a brass head screw and lap to final polish. Anyhow do the brownells tools work good and are they quality? Or should I just let the Smith do it? Also I am very good with my hands and work on planes for a living.

[Reg]

The crowning part is no problem. The Brownell tool works well but you must start with a squared cut. Not too sure about the steel wool business, sounds like a good way to dull a cutter.
The kicker is going to be the dovetail. If you have a milling machine and a dovetail cutter and properly fitted blocks it can be just a few minute job. It can be done by hand with a three corner file that has been "safed" but requires a lot of skill ( I.E. training ) to get everything exact and level. Not a job for a beginner unless you know exactly what you are doing you can really mess things up quick.
Also there is going to be a difference in front sight height you are going to have to figure out.
The short of it is, unless you have the proper tools and knowledge , best to leave it to someone who does know and has the proper tools or just simply trade the pistol off.

[NVScouter]

If you want to practice google the MidwayUSA video. Lapping compound and a bronze screw on an electric drill. I've used this a dozen times and its a nice way to do it if you take your time. Its the best for just kissing the exposed rifling contact withing a bigger crowned area.

[yotatrd4x4]

Reg,
I understand about the dovetail business but to be squared at the barrel brownells also sells a muzzle facing tool and I said in my thread facing the barrel before crowning so I already know that I need to file it flat as possible then used the 90 degree facing tool then either a 11 degree crown or a 45 degree crown tool. With the facing tool the muzzle will be squared with the bore which is way better than being squared to the outside of the barrel. Also on trading the pistol I already stated that its a blued Redhaw I.E no longer made and near impossible to find with a 4 inch barrel. I do not want to trade unless I can find a blued 4 inch and I have been looking for 2 years with no luck.

NVScouter,
I do not plan to mess with the brass screw other than to polish the crown after cutting it. I prefer things to be near perfect and the brass screw just won't give the results I want. I mainly want to hear about the brownells tools not what way other folks use to crown barrels.

Mainly I want to know from folks who have the tools mentioned or used them before and what they think.

[mac60]

Considering Brownell's is where someone who makes their living working on guns would go to buy their tools - yes, they are quality tools and do work. You've probably done your homework and know they don't come cheap. If you've got a bunch of money to throw around it would make a great project - buying the tools to do 1 job really doesn't strike me as financially sound (you could probably sell them when you're through). Cutting, facing and crowning the barrel with the correct tools is absolutely something you could do yourself. Same thoughts on the dovetail, going slow and careful - doable. Very easy to go wrong and have something that'll look cheesy on the finished job. Maybe the thread will attract Goodsteel's attention and then you could get the advice of a gunsmith. I understand the desire to do things for yourself and I wish you good luck. Like to see pictures of the finished job.

[Reg]

If you use the muzzle squaring tool, then you will have no problem getting the bore/muzzle face relationship correct. This is important. Think I would still stay away from trying to use steel wool to try to stop any chattering. Try holding the frame and barrel vertical in a well padded vise and use even downward pressure on the crowning tool. If you see chatter starting to develop, try playing with more or less but very even pressure on the tool. Sometime lightening up on the last revolution helps. Try plain old black sulpher based cutting oil for a lube. You can buy it as a pipe threading oil at any ACE hardware. Since you are doing it all by hand you will have more than sufficient time to correct for any chatter that may develop. The final cleaning with the lap should take care of any minor bumps in the road.
Cutting the dovetail is still going to be the trick of the whole thing. I would refer you to Dunlaps book on gunsmithing. His method works very well but it still takes being very and I do mean very careful. Use a 12" scale to show and control level of the dovetail. Depth generally is .090 but if you have a front sight you think might work do measure it first. You can take a 6 inch fine cut three cornered file and carefully grind one flat clean and smooth to make a safe file. New correct front sights are out there or if you can get your hands on even a small bench mill then it is no great trick to make what ever you need.
You can do this. Think of it as fitting a valve or joining case halves on a 0320. You have to be just as careful.

[yotatrd4x4]

Mac60,

i did do a lot of research on the subject but just wanted to ask around I have decided to buy the tools to try them out. I do think they will be worth it since I do many projects. I will post pictures when I'm done. Probably gonna have the smith do the dovetail. Also to my above post fellers please take no offense I didn't mean it harshly if it sounds that way.

[mac60]

I'd still take the "stubs" and practice on them. In the end though I think giving the gunsmith $50 and getting a nice clean dovetail cut would be money well spent. Have you considered having him put a ramp on the barrel. You might need a ramp to get the front sight up high enough to be useable.

[country gent]

If you want to use the original ruger interchangable front sight blades the cut is not a true dovetail and there is a hole that needs to be drilled from the front and a plunger installed. The cut is an angled on one side and sqyare on other then the plunger locks them in place. Thats if you want to keep it close to stock. If not then the dovetail will work fine.

[MBTcustom]

If you are adept at handwork, this is no step for a stepper.
Saw the barrel off, and file it square using a square to check your work. If you're on a budget, you can get away with just doing that. After you're done making everything true, you can use your file to blend a light radius into the end of the barrel. As long as you stay away from the crowning edge, you're good to go.
Use sandpaper in a "shoeshine" motion to polish the outer radiused edge, and then press the paper into the middle of the barrel (you can feel it) and use a twisting motion with your thumb to work the finish into a circular pattern around the muzzle so it looks good.
Use a brass screw if you want, but that should do as is.


Now, the dove tail.
No mincing of words here, that needs to be right because what you see on the tip of the sight is a long way from the cut you make on the barrel.
attention to detail and a steady hand cannot be over emphasized, and you must start and finish with a square and parallel cut. Now, that said, here's how you do it with nothing but hand tools:

1.Vice your barrel, and use a small bubble level on the receiver to make for darn sure the pistol is level. However you hold it, it had better be able to stay held level while you are stroking on it with your files, so whittle wood blocks, shim stuff up, and do whatever it takes to make it solid and level. You will not proceed until you are satisfied.

2.Next, take a magic marker and dope the front of the barrel.

3.Take your calipers and scratch in your front and rear lines for the top of the dove tail. Awe shucks, you messed it up? Start over. You will not proceed until you are satisfied.

4.Open your calipers to about the apparent width that the cut needs to be side to side at the bottom and lock them. The width is not too awful important as long as it's close. This is just a help to see if you are filing the cut level in the barrel, and is optional, but honestly, we need all the help we can get. LOL!

5.Tape the bubble level to the rear rail of your calipers. Touch the tips to the barrel with your fingers. Watch the level as you push the calipers forward laying out two parallel lines down the end of the barrel. Please be picky and make it right.

6. Take a file of the appropriate width (the flat Grobet needle file is about perfect for this) and cut a perfectly square, level, channel in the top of the barrel to the depth of your dovetail. Check your work by feeling the bottom of the channel with your calipers and watch the bubble level to see if your angle is correct. You want this to be perfect, as this will guide you to the perfect dovetail cut later.
So now you have this perfect square notch in your barrel that is level on the bottom and just as flat as you can make it.

7. take a three sqaure file that is new and sharp. The corners are often rounded, but that's no biggy as you are about to fix that.
Take that file to a belt sander (don't have one? God help you!) and grind off the teeth on one side. Use the lines of the teeth to tell you if you are grinding it flat or not. Please be picky, and do not go too far. You want a faint witness of the teeth left perfectly even under your freshly ground surface to prove to yourself that you have it right.
Do the same thing to a second side of the file so you have only one cutting edge.
Now, you will notice that most three square files have a fairly straight section about 1/2 way up the blade, then they taper a little from there on? Wrap tape around the really tapered part to remove the temptation to use that part on your dovetail. That would be bad.

8. I want you to hold the file like a gentleman (pinky in the air) and take measured, even cuts. Deepen the forward point of the dove, then the rearward, keeping the file as square to the barrel as possible and using that awesome flat surface you filed in as a guide for your file to keep it level with the barrel. Do everything possible to make every stroke with a clean edge, and square to the barrel. This is not easy, but I got it right the first time, and I have never screwed one up, but a big part of the reason for that is that I realize how difficult it is, and I also have a milling machine to get me 99% of the way there, but the short strokes are the same when you get close no matter how you got there.

9. Keep trying the front sight and comparing. Understand that the difference between a properly fit dove tail, a loose dovetail, and one that still needs work is about .001 inches! Trust me, if you stick that front sight in there and it even starts to go in the slot, you should get sweaty palms because you are very very very close, and you may have actually gone too far.
Keep deburring the dove as you go so that the burrs are never what's holding the sight back from going in the dovetail.

10. Once the corners of the sight can be stuck into the slot, take a brass or aluminum drift, and see if it drifts in. You want it to be tight enough that you have to tap pretty smartly (Ok, work with me here. It's not a fence post OK?) in order to get it in. If the sight doesn't drift in smoothly, then tap it out, and take another light stroke with the file, and try again.

Remember that there are about 5 surfaces that you are fitting at once here. Any one of them could be holding you up, so when the sight sticks, hold the gun up to the light to see where to remove material from.
Once you get it set in place with perfect tension, look through the sights. If you did it right, and were a really picky sucker when you were filing, then you will be really pleased with the result.
If not, you should have talked to your gunsmith. LOL!

[seagiant]

Hi,
I've had Brownell's hand crowning kit for 20 years. As far as the cut just get it good and flat/straight as you can, The crowning tool uses a spud that fits the bore of the barrel and uses that to index off of to cut the crown. If your face is not close the new crown will look off but not really be as it is straight with the bore as it should be!

As far as chatter with the tool it will if you use to much pressure! I take my time with oil and use a very light touch. The tool is VERY sharp and will do the job! Having a lathe I use the tool mostly to freshen crowns on mil surp rifles I cannot get in the lathe. I make my own spuds to use it on different calibers.

As far as the dovetail with no mill I would farm that out!

[fatelk]

Goodsteel, I can tell that you are a true craftsman by the way you wrote that. Thank you for that detailed explanation.

I have some training and experience as a machinist, am good with close detailed work and can be quite picky (I've been called "persnickety"), but I would be hesitant to cut a dovetail by hand.

If I did, though, I would print out your instructions there and follow them patiently and carefully!

[pkie44]

I have been thinking about one of these. Anyone use it?
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...ducts_id=13083

[W.R.Buchanan]

Larry Potterfield has a video on cutting a dovetail by hand on Youtube. You might look at that to assist in visualizing Tim's instructional above.

You are an A&P and if anyone is willing to fly in an airplane you have worked on then I'm sure you realize this job is a one way trip and you have to creep up on it.

The Brownell's tool is a very good tool and will work well for you however for one job you might not get your money's worth out of it,,, so looking at alternatives might be in order.

If you have access to a lathe then I'd say face the muzzle in that and then use a countersink to chamfer the bore and then lap it with some fine sandpaper.

The kicker on a muzzle crown is to have all of the edges of the rifling the same. However you choose to do it. Any recessing of the bore be it with a counter sink, lapping, target crown, file, etc. is only done to protect the ends of the rifling from damage.

Anything that will accomplish this task will work just fine.

Randy

Randy

[fatelk]

This thread encouraged me to cut and crown a barrel I've been meaning to do for a while now. It had a bulge in the last inch or so. The bore isn't that great either, has some rust damage but I'll give it a try. It's a good one to practice on.

How did I do? I wish I had a lathe, but all I used was a hacksaw, file, square, some fine sandpaper, and a ball bearing to press the sandpaper into the crown. I think it came out OK for my first try.

[MBTcustom]

This thread encouraged me to cut and crown a barrel I've been meaning to do for a while now. It had a bulge in the last inch or so. The bore isn't that great either, has some rust damage but I'll give it a try. It's a good one to practice on.

How did I do? I wish I had a lathe, but all I used was a hacksaw, file, square, some fine sandpaper, and a ball bearing to press the sandpaper into the crown. I think it came out OK for my first try.

Looks very usable.
Well done.
Now go see how it shoots! (Be prepared though, it may take quite a few shots to really convince yourself that you did it perfectly. LOL!)

[fatelk]

I didn't mean to hijack this thread away from the OP, but thought I'd post my results from the range in regards to the above amateur muzzle crown.

I finally made it out to the range, set up my sand bags, and shot two 4-round groups at 100 yards. I had loaded up a box or .300 Win Mag with 168gr Sierras over a case full of old WWII surplus H4831. One group measured 1.12" and the other measured 1.35". I am pleased with that.

I'm interested to do some more with it when I get time. There's definitely room for improvement in my sandbag rest setup and shooting technique, and I've done zero load development for this rifle. I'm a little surprised that it shoots so well with some pitting in the bore.

The other thing I did to it in addition to cutting off the bulged muzzle and re-crowning was to free float the barrel. I'm sure there's some practical reason, but I've always wondered why Remington puts that big pressure point/lump towards the muzzle in their 700 barrel channels. I sanded out a LOT of wood to get it to float, even down beyond the lump.

[MBTcustom]

I've always wondered why Remington puts that big pressure point/lump towards the muzzle in their 700 barrel channels. I sanded out a LOT of wood to get it to float, even down beyond the lump.

It has to do with barrel harmonics, and its there for a reason. Usually taking it out prodeces no change or worse groups, but I've never heard of one improving by removing the pressure point.

I've done a lot of calling around trying to find somebody who can educate me on this, and I finally heard of a guy that pretty much had it down pat, but was told that he was 90 years old, one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel, and couldn't talk to me. I was told that when said gentleman was my age, he had figured out a whole mathematical formula to tell him where when and how to do this.
I guess I will never know unless I start experimenting with wippy barrels which I have no intention of doing. I've been very blessed with the contacts I have made and the wisdom they have imparted to me over the years, but it seems there are some things that gunsmiths will take to their graves with them because I (or someone like me) wasn't there to listen. It's a crying shame. If you know an old gunsmith, go spend some time with him if you're inclined. They're dropping like flies.

[fatelk]

Yeah, right after posting I did some quick research and read up a little on it. I did find several instances, though, of folks improving accuracy by free floating and/or bedding (yes, I know anecdotal internet stories mean very little). I have several Rem 700s that I've floated and most shoot pretty darn good. To be honest though I don't recall how they shot before, or if I even compared back then. I'm not meaning to challenge what you're saying, just wondering how these things work.

In retrospect I realize maybe I should have just crowned the barrel and tried it with the pressure point before floating it, but it seems to shoot pretty good now so I'm not disappointed.

Long ago I worked for a gunsmith for several years. I mostly just did production mill work on a line of parts he made so I didn't really learn many of the finer points of gun-smithing, but it's from him that I got the idea that all barrels should be floated.

Then again, he just does high-dollar bench-rest and varmint rifles, so maybe the rules are different with heavy precision barrels. I wish I had gotten the chance to learn more useful stuff from him, instead of just standing in from of a milling machine turning a handle.

[MBTcustom]

Yeah, things are totally different with skinny barrels. I float all the target barrels on the precision rifles, but the art of making a pencil barrel shoot dime sized groups requires proper pressure points in order to make it work. The old smiths knew this, and you can tell by looking at the old millsurps that have half a rick of wood strapped to the barrel with a thin tube under it. Those rifles shoot amazingly well if you ever find one that has a good bore and that hasn't had the woodworks jacked with.
Buddy of mine had a Swede that would print 1/2" groups at 100 yards on demand. Simply amazing! He would never take the stocks off that rifle nor allow a single screw to be turned on it for fear of messing up some harmonic. I really can't say I blame him. That's just nuts!