45-70 ped

[ihuntbear]

hello fellow casters
I have a 45-70 Pedersoli
I've been trying to develop a load for this new gun for some time now.I tried different charge powders with triple seven and goex, nothing worked until I tried this load ..My load is 50 gr of triple 7 fffg drop tubed one newspaper wad over powder and a lyman 500 grn lead rnd nose..boolet weighs 530 grns pure lead on the scale sized 459,spg lube.boolet just touches the lands.have 2" groups at 100 yrds,trying for 1" group or better. at that yardage it should hit the same hole but it doesn't..some body at the range told me it needs a harder boolet,well I cast some 50/50 lead/ww.boolets were allot harder.all I got was key holeing..I mean hitting flat on the paper,i could see the grease grooves with no grouping at all...any ideas would be appreciated

[GoodOlBoy]

Handloader magazine issue #288 Feb 2014 has a good article from Mike Venturino on loading 45-70 for trapdoors that should work well for you. Amazon still has copies. http://www.amazon.com/Handloader-Mag...oader+feb+2014

I know some folks are going to scream, but back the bullet off of the lands and see what you get. You don't need a hard bullet for black btw.

I am not a fan of that bullet weight in the 45-70. I prefer the 405 grain RN hollow base from the lee mold, but others seem to hate it. Dunno other than that.

good luck to ya

GoodOlBoy

[montana_charlie]

I cast some 50/50 lead/ww.boolets were allot harder.all I got was key holeing..I mean hitting flat on the paper,i could see the grease grooves with no grouping at all...any ideas would be appreciated

A mix of 50/50 ww and pure should make a bullet that will shoot reliably in a BPCR rifle, but I don't know a thing about 'triple 7' powder.
I don't know if it burns enough like black powder to make that alloy bump up when fired.

But, as a first step, I think you should examine your barrel very carefully to see if it has leaded.

CM

[country gent]

There are several areas to look at. Keep in mind that Black powder dosnt do as well with airspace in the case. Determine how deep the bullet is in the case and then find the charge that just fills the case to this point. This gives a charge level that is no airspace and only compression is thickness of the wad used. Milk cartons, tablet backing card board, playing cards, gasket material or purchased wads all will work. You want to be able to hand seat the boolet onto the wad and be very close to desired overall length. Then work up in 1 grn increments changing nothing else but the wieght. This gives a slight change in powder charge and slight increases in compression that are very controlled. For my Black powder rounds I used a slightly harder alloy than pure lead 20-1 lead tin mix. A hard bullet at back powder pressures may not obturate to seal the bore enough. Hence the poor accuracy, leading, and key holes. I havent worked alot with the substitutes ( triple 7, blackhorn 209, pyrodex) As to powder Goex 2f granu;ation to start with and work slow and watch fouling. Hard crusty fouling is a sighn more lube is needed or a blow tube /wiping needs to be done. If you decide you need more lube a grease cookie can be inserted under the bullet between 2 card wads. Make sure the nose on the lyman 500 grn round nose is a close fit in the bore of your rifle. Should measure around .447 -.449 on the nose. A undersized nose can slump and cause keyholing also. It would be of help troubleshooting to know barrel length, twist rate, bore and groove dias, sights. all of this info helps to decide what to do.

[Boz330]

I know people that have had good luck with WW boolits and mixes but in my rifles it has always leaded within 10 to 15 rounds and accuracy went south. With real BP you get boolit bump up. The fakes are closer to smokeless and you don't get reliable bump up, add to that your harder mix and that might be the problem.
In several Pedrsolis I have started with 68g and worked back and forth from that number and had pretty good luck. Right now my powder of choice is Old Eynsford.

Bob

[ihuntbear]

A undersized nose can slump and cause keyholing also. It would be of help troubleshooting to know barrel length, twist rate, bore and groove dias, sights. all of this info helps to decide what to do.

twist is 1-20,sights are target peep sight front and back don't know the brand name,bore is .457..barrel is 32"...had some leading with 50/50 mix,,all clean know..I loaded some more with pure lead over the same load..now I'm out of triple 7 fffg maybe try some ffg or goex ffg..Only bad part about goex is its very dirty

[montana_charlie]

Only bad part about goex is its very dirty

Generally, Goex burns cleaner when it is compressed by .2" or more.
How deep are you seating the bullet in the case?
CM

[John Boy]

twist is 1-20,sights are target peep sight front and back don't know the brand name,bore is .457

All factory Pedersoli 45-70 rifles are 1:18 twist, not 1:20 and the factory bore specifications are:
* lands - 0.450
* groove - 0.4580

Additional factory specifications:
reamer depth controlled to +.003" and -.000" .
Rim Dia. .618"
Rim width .070 (depth of rim seat)
Case diameter at rim base .508
Case length 2.129 (includes .070 rim thickness)
Length of 45 deg angle .060
Diameter at rear of throat (at 45 deg angle) .4598
Length of throat .236
Diameter of throat at front .4578
Leade angle 1 deg. 30 min

[montana_charlie]

All factory Pedersoli 45-70 rifles are ...

Everything you gave him applies to Sharps rifles, John.
He said he has a 45/70 Pedersoli, but he didn't say what style.

I have an idea that the rolling blocks they built before they starting making Sharps guns might be notably different in the barrels.

[ihuntbear]

All factory Pedersoli 45-70 rifles are 1:18 twist, not 1:20 and the factory bore specifications are:
* lands - 0.450
* groove - 0.4580

Additional factory specifications:
reamer depth controlled to +.003" and -.000" .
Rim Dia. .618"
Rim width .070 (depth of rim seat)
Case diameter at rim base .508
Case length 2.129 (includes .070 rim thickness)
Length of 45 deg angle .060
Diameter at rear of throat (at 45 deg angle) .4598
Length of throat .236
Diameter of throat at front .4578
Leade angle 1 deg. 30 min

..sorry my mistake it is a 1-18 twist..I slugged the barrel and miced it ,457 on the grooves and 450 on the lands unless my mic is reading wrong...its a 45-70 ped sharps

[John Boy]

Charlie: I went to the Pedersoli website and scrolled down through all the 45-70 type rifles ... 1:18.
I was curious myself because on my firearms inventory spread - I had both my Sharps as 1:20 and something didn't click right in the head
I also looked in the data that Dick Trenk posted and twist was not mentioned

[Hardcast416taylor]

Just to clear this up a little, what model of Pedersoli do you have? Is it a Rolling Block or a Trapdoor or some other creation they may have made?Robert

[country gent]

How does the nose of the lyman bullet fit the bore? 1-18 is correct twist rate for that bullet but if the nose is undersized ( not unussual for lyman ) it can slump when bumped up causing keyholing and poor accuracy. You stated bore is .450 in your barrel, WHat does the nose measure on the bullet? I once seen a 457125 luman that dropped beautifull bullets .459 dia but with a .438-.439 nose dia.

[bigted]

i dont mean to state something that has already been decided but here goes anyway;

if you can take a tight fitting cloth patch ... clean ... and run it up and down the barrel a couple times and ANY color is left on the clean patch ... you got some un-mined lead going on. this will for sure destry any semblance of accuracy.

i take ...[as was tought me by a feller here]... pure pine terpintine and swab the barrel full length several times and get the bore as wet as possible ... now allow it to set horozontal for 5 or 10 minutes ... now take a very tight fitting clean patch and push it thru the bore and retrieve for a glance at the patch for slivers or flakes of lead/debri. repeat this procedure for as long as ANY lead/debri comes out on the very tight clean patch. i have had to swab the bore and work a brass bristle brush 10 to 20 times thru the bore and then re swabbing to remove some stuborn lead deposites.

just a thought for a sometimes fatal deposite that will continue to accumulate more lead as time goes by if not completely removed. i have had this happen to me is the reason i mention it here.

[ihuntbear]

How does the nose of the lyman bullet fit the bore? 1-18 is correct twist rate for that bullet but if the nose is undersized ( not unussual for lyman ) it can slump when bumped up causing keyholing and poor accuracy. You stated bore is .450 in your barrel, WHat does the nose measure on the bullet? I once seen a 457125 luman that dropped beautifull bullets .459 dia but with a .438-.439 nose dia.

where do you measure the nose..i measured just before the round tip and got .449...the rifle is a 45-70 ped sharps falling block ...my leading was just after the breech for about 4" then nothing

[John Boy]

.my leading was just after the breech for about 4" then nothing

Gas stripping of the bullet base - under size bullet - lube starvation or ... a combination of all three

[country gent]

Yes you measure the parrallel surfaces of the nose .449 is a good fit for your bore. So now its either base/body fit or simply load development. Ussually that bullet carries enough lube. With my Hepburn in 45-90 I give 3 breaths thru a blow tube between shots. This helps to keep fouling soft. If you want to really pick up themoisture level wet your mouth with water before blowing. Also a little heavier wad may help also. Try some wads cut from playing cards or waxed milk cartoons. With the Goex leave no airspace between bullet and powder wad. Goex likes a little compression actually up to .200 or so. Work with 2 f to start and start out with no airspace then work up in 1-2 grain increments changing nothing else. This will change charge and compression both.

[Don McDowell]

Are you by chance seating the bullet without compessing the powder first? If so that is likely a big part of your leading problem, deforming the nose ever so slightly will cause you no end of greif.
Follow Big Ted's lead mining instructions, and then use something to compress the powder to the depth needed to just let the bullet base have firm contact with the wad/powder column.
Also be mindful of crimping, only enough to remove the flare on the case mouth that let you seat the bullet without shaving the base, is adequate.

[ihuntbear]

Are you by chance seating the bullet without compessing the powder first? If so that is likely a big part of your leading problem, deforming the nose ever so slightly will cause you no end of greif.
Follow Big Ted's lead mining instructions, and then use something to compress the powder to the depth needed to just let the bullet base have firm contact with the wad/powder column.
Also be mindful of crimping, only enough to remove the flare on the case mouth that let you seat the bullet without shaving the base, is adequate.

I don't compress triple seven,told not to..i just add powder through drop tube,one newspaper wad over 50gr triple 7 and just put boolet sized .459 in by hand..over all length is 2.62".lube is spg.boolet just touching lans...no room for extra wads or lube cookies unless I change to goex and compress

[Don McDowell]

It sounds like your bullets are to small diameter for your chamber, might check their diameter before sizing. Many Pedersoli's like their bullets at .460.
But until you get all the lead out of that bore, and start with it absolutely free of lead or fouling of any kind, you'll just end up chasing your tail.