Best advice yet. Me, I'll continue shooting both my pre-war sporters built on LSN receivers, as well as my pretty little pre-WWI Rock Island M1903. It's too bloody hot/humid here today to do that though (or cut firewood).Originally Posted by Bullshop
Personally, I welcome debates like this. They usually scare people into parting with their LSN death traps at discount rates. Yum yum!
Can anybody point to documentation of LSN's failing lower than 80k, or at a rate higher than other rifles of the era?
See this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-Mauser-m-1896
If Bill et al. are correct, "metal fatigue" just means "crack spreading under repeated cycling." If there's no crack, there's no metal fatigue.
It sounds like shooting an LNS that passes a dye penetrant test for cracks is probably safer than shooting a Swede Mauser that hasn't been tested for cracks, which a lot of us would do.
The more I learn about it, the LNS sounds like a manageable risk, comparable to a lot of other risks we consider reasonable.
Next time a friend offers to let you fire a few rounds from his Swede/Krag/Rolling Block, will you refuse if he hasn't dye-tested it?
That would be wrong...........................
anyone who thinks if metal has no crack=it has not fatigued, your crazy!
Metal fatigue is a failure caused by cyclic loading. After a number of cycles,
a crack forms at the highest stress point, and after that, the crack increases in
depth in small incriments with each cycle. The crack begins to accelerate the
process because the crack tip concentrates the stresses greatly.
It would seem that these failures are all catastrophic failures of intact guns, not
the end stage failures of a fatigue situation where the small area of remaining
metal fails. BUT without examining the fracture surface for the obvious signs
of fatigue, this is unknown for sure.
IMO, there are so few documented cases of failures of LSN 1903s WITHOUT SOME
SERIOUS OVERPRESSURE CAUSED BY SOME PREVENTABLE CAUSE that it would seem
that AT MINIMUM they would be fine for cast boolit loads, and PROBABLY with normal
handloads at 50,000 psi. If I had one, I'd confidently shoot low pressure cast loads.
If a person isn't comfortable with this, SELL IT and move on.
Bill
If it was easy, anybody could do it.
Guess I am crazy. JHeath & MtGunn 44 have it correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_(material)
In materials science, fatigue is the weakening of a material caused by repeatedly applied loads. It is the progressive and localized structural damage that occurs when a material is subjected to cyclic loading. The nominal maximum stress values that cause such damage may be much less than the strength of the material typically quoted as the ultimate tensile stress limit, or the yield stress limit.
Fatigue occurs when a material is subjected to repeated loading and unloading. If the loads are above a certain threshold, microscopic cracks will begin to form at the stress concentrators such as the surface, persistent slip bands (PSBs), and grain interfaces.[1] Eventually a crack will reach a critical size, the crack will propagate suddenly, and the structure will fracture. The shape of the structure will significantly affect the fatigue life; square holes or sharp corners will lead to elevated local stresses where fatigue cracks can initiate. Round holes and smooth transitions or fillets will therefore increase the fatigue strength of the structure.
http://www.materialsengineer.com/CA-fatigue.htm
Metal fatigue is caused by repeated cycling of of the load. It is a progressive localized damage due to fluctuating stresses and strains on the material. Metal fatigue cracks initiate and propagate in regions where the strain is most severe. The process of fatigue consists of three stages:
- Initial crack initiation
- Progressive crack growth across the part
- Final sudden fracture of the remaining cross section
http://www.burgoynes.com/content/what-metal-fatigue
- Metal fatigue is the relatively slow growth of cracks through metal structures or objects. For it to occur the object must be subjected to a tensile, cyclic load. In other words, there must be some force tending to pull the object apart and the force must vary over time. These conditions occur with rotating or vibrating machinery and when sea-going vessels are worked in the seaways.
- Fatigue cracks are very slow to develop initially but their rate of growth increases dramatically as the crack grows. In essence, this acceleration results from a localised increase in the stress at the top of the expanding crack, which comes about quite naturally because the forces on the object are supported by an ever-diminishing cross-sectional area.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 07-16-2014 at 03:13 PM.
where cracks develope, its has already been fatigued, hence you do not have to have cracks for the metal to have been fatigued.
Please site your engineering or scientific source that Metal fatigue is something other than the relatively slow growth of cracks through metal structures or objects.
No sense trying to confuse some with facts; some make up there own definitions and even make up terms to go with the made up definitions. Yes, JHeath & MtGunn 44 have it correct as do you.
Larry Gibson
I agree . I have done alot of hoisting and rigging over the years and have had equipment fail that hod no cracks...SH#T happens when under load(s) over time. And starting with a known inferior product..why would any sane person push that envelope ?.
Last edited by oneokie; 07-16-2014 at 09:05 PM. Reason: language
No , I did not read that in a manual or stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.... it's just the facts Ma'am.
What's the difference between a pig and an Engineer ?
You can argue with the Pig.
How current were the Non-destructive testing (NDT)/Nondestructive inspection (NDI) certifications? For lifting devices the most common NDT methods are:
• Magnetic Particle Inspection
• Dye or Liquid Penetrant Inspection
• Ultrasonic Testing
• Radiographic testing (x-ray)
Which methods were used for the certification and what were the defect limits? If not NDT’ed they should have been load tested at a minimum.
On lifting devices normally visual cracks take it out of service but you may be allowed some microscopic cracking that shows on the NDT inspections.
Most people probably would not fly if they knew how many cracks aircaft are allowed to fly with.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 07-16-2014 at 09:13 PM.
you guys have never bent a piece of steel, and straightened it? im sure you have, no cracks (in good steel- at least the first few times you bend it), but it has been fatigued. achieving a crack, is just showing something has reached the point of failure. a crack is just visible evidence of mettalurgical failure, something can still be fatigued in absense of a crack. which brings us all the way back to, just because a low# 03 reciever doesnt have a crack, does not make it safe, or unsafe. there is no 100% way to be certain short of a reciever failing during use, or destructive testing.
HA! (that's a friendly laugh). Inferior to what? What is the strongest bolt rifle ever made? Maybe the Arisaka. Why shoot the second strongest, or the third? Gew98 of all people wants to shelve every rifle that's not an Arisaka, because why would any sane person push that envelope?
[insert mischievous icon holding a sign that says I'll buy you beer later for all this teasing]
Daredevils continue to shoot their pre-war Model 70s, or Weatherbys, or A-Squares, when they could be shooting a nice, safe Arisaka.
You're talking to a bunch of guys who like to shoot Rolling Blocks and Danish Krags etc. but can hardly keep the models straight, and don't magnaflux them between each round. Who knows what the metallurgical spec was for most of these rifles, let alone the conformance rate.
The Springfield is controversial because somebody bothered to tell us the spec, and shared the fact that they didn't all meet it.
The controversy does not seem to have originated in blow-ups. From what I see the Swedish Mauser may have a worse record of unexplained blowups with injuries, which surprises me.
Again please site your engineering or scientific source that Metal fatigue is something other than the relatively slow growth of cracks through metal structures or objects.
the very word fatigue, means to have lost strength. a crack is a failure. at the point something cracks, its has gone past fatigue.
SO here we have almost a million serial numbers of 03's and and less than 1/10 of 1% failures.
I think of all the 03's that were shot daily on battlefields in WW1 and WW2 and they still survived.
The report I read years ago recommended using only M2 Ball ammo in the low serial number guns or low pressure reloads.
I can tell you from years of Gunsmithing/ Machine shop work that metal can fatigue or fail without warning and showing no prior signs that are visible to the eye or even high power magnification. Some steels depend on elasticity while others depend on the microcrystaline structure / heat treat strength to perform to the specifications needed for the application to withstand stress and loads placed on them.
You Know You Might Be Facing your DOOM , if all you get is a click, Instead of a BOOM !
If God had wanted us to have Plastic gun stocks he would have planted plastic Trees !
Not a metallurgists but I have read that the advantages of some alloying agents is that they create a condition where micro fractures will come to a dead end rather than continue to propagate. I think Vanadium may be one of these.
I have looked into the use of Vanadium in steels and its an interesting story.
Swedish Iron ores contained Vanadium as a contaminant bonded to a number of other contaminents.
Studies of ancient Viking swords revealed that the best quality blades contained vanadium, and these could be bent nearly double without cracking.
The steel of early Swedish Mausers contained some residual Vanadium but by 1915 or so steel makers were separating out the contaminants and purifying the vanadium then re introducing it to create a true Vanadium Steel.
Oodly enough the first widespread use of Vanadium Steel was by the Ford Motor company to make the frame and suspensions of the Model T Ford automobile.
Near as I can tell no WW1 era rifles other than the Swedish Mauser had any Vanadium in their make up. So it would appear that all these are more subject to metal fatigue than more modern fire arms.
Other alloying agents such as Molybdenum have similar qualities. Trace amounts of copper have some beneficial effects as well.
The manner in which the alloying agents are introduced also makes a difference to how effective these are.
I also found that exposure to nitrogen compounds under pressure embrittles iron plating and results in failures of pipes and vessels.
Perhaps this effects steels as well. Nitriding of rifle and machinegun bores cuts down on erosion. All rifle propellants produce nitrious compounds.
Interesting thread. Good points from many angles. Multigunner, good insight there. In gross, lay terms I guess it's something like brittleness vs elasticity. I knew about the "Ulfberht" Viking blades which were likely fashioned from a type of "Eastern" steel acquired via trade routes. Interesting about the Vanadium in the source Swedish steel ore and may explain why that steel acts the way it does under extreme stress.
I've always avoided the low serialed 03s, so have never worried about it one way or the other. I do shoot a high number 03 and a couple of 03A3s and don't worry about it but shoot primarily cast in them and never hot rod anyway.
Secrets of the Viking Sword (2012) full Documentary
(ulfberht) 54 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXbLyVpWsVM
Uber7mm
Bambi: The great American hunting story as told through the eyes of the antagonist.
Henry Ford found through trial-and-error (that he personally took part in) that the very best steel for the "wishbone" that was the key to making the flimsy Model-T chassis work was best made from a high vanadium alloy. An added expense that he insisted upon bearing, that contributed to the overall success of the Model-T.
I have a Mill's belt filled with cast loads (18gr. SR-4759/180 gr. bullet) that will be fed through my LN Rock Island '03 this afternoon. If y'all don't hear from me tomorrow, you know what happened!
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