10 cents a round for .22LR

[Heavy lead]

Just more of the sad entitlement mentality. I bought a gun someone needs to make sure I can get cheap ammo for it. Just a bunch of whining. If the government was the problem then it would be smart to complain to you elected representatives and explaining to businessmen that you think they are missing an opportunity all make sense but whining about it here.......

If you want to start a grass roots campaign to reach out to the manufacturers, I will join a petition or letter writing campaign. I you want the Feds to allow more imports from Russia, I am not going there.

Tim

I do believe this might be the first time I've ever been described as having an entitlement mentality, quite interesting at the least. I did get a chuckle out of it though, thanks for that.

[dtknowles]

I do believe this might be the first time I've ever been described as having an entitlement mentality, quite interesting at the least. I did get a chuckle out of it though, thanks for that.

Maybe this part of the post you thought so highly of "I have invested a good amount of money in firearms with something of an understanding that sufficient ammunition and/or components would be available to enable training and recreation with those arms." made a different impression on you than it did me.

The fault could be mine but to me this is the thought of someone one who feels entitled to something that was not promised. History has shown that just because someone makes a gun does not mean that they promise to assure that ammo for it will be available or affordable. Many people understood this but some learned in the shortage from the Clinton years others are learning now. Some of us learned from the stories about shortages during WWII. Sometimes I read stories in threads here about people (preper types) developing techniques so they can have or make ammo when the normal sources have dried up.

Some people expect others to make what they want available for them to purchase and some even expect that it should be reasonably priced. Others are thankful when it is available and even more thankful when it is cheap but are prepared for when it might not be available at any price.

Taught myself to make pretty good beer and passable wine and know where to source the ingredients. I still have most of my tools of the trade. I don't make it myself now, it was just a learning exercise so that I could still enjoy those beverages when or if they might be hard to get.

I guess this is a combination of an explanation and an apology. Saying someone has an entitlement mentality might be considered an insult. I am sorry I did not mean to be insulting.

I truly am entitled (it says so in my contract) to a pension I earned working for a company for 30 years, I could have accepted a buyout or started early retirement a year ago. If the company goes bankrupt I might get 50 cents on the dollar from the federal pension benefits guarantee program or less if the government can't afford even that. Sometimes even being entitled will only get you a chance to whine about how you have been cheated. Make your own decision and provide for yourself, don't feel like someone or some company or some government owes you something, especially when they actually don't.

Tim

[9.3X62AL]

DT--

"Entitlement mentality" is a gross over-statement of what I meant to express. My meaning was more along the line of "reasonable expectation" of having consumables to utilize in the somewhat costly hardware items I own and enjoy.

I do not reject anyone's contention that starting up a brand-new ammp production line of facility is a very risky venture. I get that, and I get that a number of financial and political disincentives form the background in which this mess has begun and continued. One of my largest annoyances occurred about a year ago when Steve Hornady basically placed the blame for the ammo shortage on the clamoring consumers. To a degree, he is correct--but the feeding frenzy is a shared responsibility--a "Perfect Storm", really--consisting of unprecedented demand with a background of true growth in the firearms hobbies--stagnant, unresponsive, unaware ammo and component makers using old-line data to predict inventory details, and a political situation that scares h--l out of any sector of the firearms trades and hobby fields. For Mr. Hornady to lay the blame at the feet of his loyal customers was arrogant and ignorant. It angered me. That sort of mindset would expect table manners from starving Eritreans.

[Surculus]

I do not reject anyone's contention that starting up a brand-new ammp production line of facility is a very risky venture.

Dunno how risky it is in the usual sense of the word. The real problem is that it's horrifically expensive, the competition is fierce and consequently the margins are low. But once the capital investment is made, even if the market is saturated at the moment, the machinery can easily be shuttered for awhile and then rapidly brought online when demand creeps up again. The thing is, there's much more profitable areas in which to invest your money if you're sitting on the pile of it required to start up a rimfire ammo production line.

The machines necessary to do this properly are largely custom made: other than the punch press for the case blanks, everything is pretty much a one- [or half-dozen] off. Eley has been said to have 5 production lines, which they probably bought 5 of each of the necessary machines the last time they updated the line a generation ago: it just wouldn't have made fiscal sense to do it onesy-twosy, and they probably went out on a financial limb & leveraged everything they could in order to set up 5 lines instead of just 4. Probably would have done 6 if they could have, but the $ just wasn't available, at a guess...

The super-high costs of setting up another production line is why you have current producers like CCI running 2 or 3 shifts rather than just setting up another line. Rimfire has precisely zero prospect of a nice, fat govt. order of bazillions of rounds over an x-year period (unlike centerfire), so who among current producers is going to go out on that financial limb to add capacity that will likely only need to be shuttered once the pipeline is refilled?

The fact remains that once the current demand subsides long enough for stocks of ammo to sit on the shelf for longer than the next shipment to arrive, [Walmart is getting resupply about what, every two months? Monthly at best?] the drought will subside because the scalpers' hold on the market will be broken and prices will gradually subside to the real "new norm" [trust me, .10/rd for bulk/"promo" is NOT it!] A little over a decade ago that was ~$10/brk for promo .22lr [Blazer, Am. Eagle, Win Wildcat, virtually all Remmie, etc.] We'll not likely see those prices again in our lifetimes: the demand for the necessary metals [copper, zinc, lead] to industrialize the burgeoning 3rd world economies [particularly rural China & India] is too high. The costs of those raw materials [well, not the single greatest component by wt. ie, lead] almost doubled for awhile there back before the worldwide recession, but of course have come down a bit since then. Still, a new norm of $20/brk for promo .22 is achievable and rational based upon the past, if we can just get the production pipeline to refill so that there is no perception of unmet demand for the scalpers to feed off of and tie up inventory to keep the prices high.

But all of that is easy for me to say, since I bought as much 22lr as I could afford when I first saw prices start rising rapidly from the $100/case to $130-$150/case level I bought a bunch of my stockpile at almost a decade ago now. No, I'm not selling...

[M-Tecs]

For Mr. Hornady to lay the blame at the feet of his loyal customers was arrogant and ignorant. It angered me. That sort of mindset would expect table manners from starving Eritreans.

After a little research is am not finding anything arrogant and ignorant. Would you be so kind as to post the statement that you find arrogant and ignorant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p2pl3ZsH8s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYMiC0GeLq4

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/04/ammo.shortage/index.html

A message from Steve Hornady, president of Hornady Ammunition, on the company'sWeb site reads:
"Here at Hornady Manufacturing we are breaking our own production records in an attempt to keep up with customer demand. We have added extra shifts, machinery and we are also in the process of expanding our manufacturing plant."
WinchesterAmmunition posted a similar statement:
"Winchester Ammunition, like other ammunition manufacturers, has seen the demand for our products increase significantly since last fall. To meet that increased demand, our operations are running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week."

[9.3X62AL]

M-Tec, do your own damn research. He made it in March 2013. This is a bulletin board, not a doctoral dissertation.

Surculus, what you say makes sense. Thank you.

[mold maker]

What else would you expect the politically correct PR depts to put out, under the current circumstances?

[M-Tecs]

M-Tec, do your own damn research. He made it in March 2013. This is a bulletin board, not a doctoral dissertation.

Surculus, what you say makes sense. Thank you.

Nice response to a legitimate request.

If Steve Hornady is truly making claims that are arrogant and ignorant I will stop using his products. You are the one making the claim so you should be able to substantiate it.

Additional research is not supporting your claims.

http://www.hornady.com/support/availability

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2013/07/hornady-suspends-production-of-150-ammo-types-and-150-bullet-types-for-balance-of-2013/

http://www.guns.com/2013/02/15/hornady-addresses-ammo-shortage/

So who is out of line. You or Steve?

[9.3X62AL]

Additional research is not supporting your claims.

If the diligence of your "research" is akin to the level of your trolling upon my posts in this thread, I wouldn't take any of it to the bank. Your failure to find the material I read online does not equate to lack of support--only to a shallowness of effort. This is your little Inquisition, enjoy it if it gives you pleasure.

[roysha]

If the diligence of your "research" is akin to the level of your trolling upon my posts in this thread, I wouldn't take any of it to the bank. Your failure to find the material I read online does not equate to lack of support--only to a shallowness of effort. This is your little Inquisition, enjoy it if it gives you pleasure.

Typical response from someone who cannot substantiate their statement. If it is too much trouble to post a link to the offending Hornady statement then I doubt it exists.

[9.3X62AL]

None of you hateful contributors has done me any favors in this thread, this is just more of the vitriol your ilk liked to spew in P&R about my career field. None of you are owed a damn thing by me. Mr. Hornady said it in March 2013, I read it online. Challenge all you want.

[roysha]

"None of you hateful contributors has done me any favors in this thread, this is just more of the vitriol your ilk liked to spew in P&R about my career field."

HUH?????

[dragon813gt]

He was a LEO and if you venture into the pit you will see a lot of cop bashing. I fail to see how that applies to this thread though.

[M-Tecs]

None of you hateful contributors has done me any favors in this thread,

In the past I have enjoyed your posts and respected them greatly. If you check you are on my friends list. Only people that I like and respect are on my friends list. I saddens me to see the direction you are choosing to proceed in.

My original request had nothing to do with you other than you made a statement that (if substantiated)may affect my future support for Hornady products.

Since I cannot substantiate it I requested that you provide a link. Nothing unusual about that.

In the past couple of months I have been called out four times on statements I have made. Each time I politely and respectfully provided substantiating information to all that requested it. (Still working on one)

Somewhat different than

M-Tec, do your own damn research. He made it in March 2013. This is a bulletin board, not a doctoral dissertation.

None of you are owed a damn thing by me. Mr. Hornady said it in March 2013, I read it online. Challenge all you want.

I believe that if someone takes the time to read my posts and the requests addition information I do OWE them that information.

[9.3X62AL]

All right, M-Tecs. Fair enough. I apologize for the rather deep bitterness I feel for this site to which I have belonged in its varying ideations since 1996, and for the sharp expressions this bitterness occasionally leads to.

My best recollection of Mr. Hornady's obnoxious statements' location was that they appeared on the Hornady site itself, or upon a link to or from the Hornady site during the timeframe of March 2013. That such a statement might have been expunged from these sites is a strong possibility given its content, and I always reserve the right to be wrong whenever I contribute to this site or any other. But I would swear under oath to having read this content, and to having been angered by its arrogance and ignorance. I don't hold grudges much, but this one by the company's "face" sunk in and hung on. Why? Because I buy a LOT of Hornady products, and the first thing I did--again on the Hornady site--was send a strongly-worded response to Mr. Hornady's assertions, and in that response I used the same text I did in this thread about how he likely expected table manners from starving Eritreans.

The real issue here is that I don't come on this site to BS other members or to fabricate stories. Some of you in this thread have more than intimated that I am doing so. I am not. I have not. I will not. And further--I am not a very skilled computer operator, and I lack the ability to research the matter or to forensically analyze the present-time absence of these statements on the net. I saw the text and recall it, that is enough for me. The outcome of the matter has been for me to greatly restrict any further purchases from the Hornady company, limiting myself to only the things they make that are unavailable elsewhere. Fact is, none of Hornady's competitors are doing a much better job of serving the hobby field they cater to than Hornady is. There isn't a lot to choose from, though things are slowly improving.