Gas Check Hardness Test

[MGnoob]

Can some of you; ideally with a cabin tree hardness tester, test the harness of one of your projectiles first on the nose, then again on the gas check(copper only)?
Please include the 2 hardness reading, casting alloy and gas check thickness(copper only). Both pistol and rifle please.

I ask because my WW boolits are 12-14bn and after plating they are 22-24 bn. Also if they're water dropped they are 14-18 bn but still 22-24 after plating.

So my #'s would look like

Type Alloy Nose reading Gas check thickness Gas check reading
rifle WW nose 12-14BN .004 22-24BN

it's just an example since mine are fmj/full-lenght gascheck Also, If you use the Cabin tree tester please include that number aswell. IDK mine off hand but i will update them later.

[Goatwhiskers]

I ain't gonna touch this. Never heard of cast boolits using full metal jacket, or a full length gas check. Confused. GW

[MGnoob]

"Boolits= as God laid it into the soil,,grand old Galena, The Silver Stream graciously hand poured into molds for our consumption. . . Bullets= Machine made utilizing Full Length Gas Checks as to provide projectiles for the masses."

Do you think that plating a boolit makes it not a boolit? That would be a topic for another thread, I did get referring to a Jacket as a "Full length gas check" form this quote.
The projectiles i make are "graciously hand poured" and not "for the masses."

I am trying to figure out if a gas check effects hardness......... not of the alloy;but, rather combine hardness
I am having trouble trying to put it into words....i just cut a "For the masses" bullet in half and check the lead hardness compared to the overall hardness and was curious if gascheck have some similar relationship.

*EDIT*
i guess i should buy some gas checks if i am that curious.i just have no need for them and find paying even $.01 to be an outrageous price for a gas check....i mean if a gas check cost 3-4 cents they as expensive or more expensive than primers .

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

"Boolits= as God laid it into the soil,,grand old Galena, The Silver Stream graciously hand poured into molds for our consumption. . . Bullets= Machine made utilizing Full Length Gas Checks as to provide projectiles for the masses."

Do you think that plating a boolit makes it not a boolit? That would be a topic for another thread, I did get referring to a Jacket as a "Full length gas check" form this quote.
The projectiles i make are "graciously hand poured" and not "for the masses."

I am trying to figure out if a gas check effects hardness......... not of the alloy;but, rather combine hardness
I am having trouble trying to put it into words....i just cut a "For the masses" bullet in half and check the lead hardness compared to the overall hardness and was curious if gascheck have some similar relationship.

*EDIT*
i guess i should buy some gas checks if i am that curious.i just have no need for them and find paying even $.01 to be an outrageous price for a gas check....i mean if a gas check cost 3-4 cents they as expensive or more expensive than primers .

I suspect you aren't getting many responses due to your lack of clarity. If you are wording your request to be clever...it may be too clever for me, as I don't quite understand the "WHY" to your request.

It should be obvious that a seated and crimped copper GC will add hardness to the base of a boolit. I don't have a cabin tree hardness tester, but I have a Lee hardness tester.
I can also send you some GC samples if you have a "ship to" address in the USA.
Jon

[Dan Cash]

I understand your question quite well. In the morning, I will test a 31141 bullet with a copper gas check and post the numbers for you.

[swheeler]

I think I know what you are asking, or more importantly why you are asking. Your copper plating on the cast bullets reads 22-24 bhn and I think you will find a copper gas check(gilding metal actually) should read close to 50 bhn.

[OuchHot!]

The penetration type testers like cabin tree, lee, saeco will not give a true reading on a gc seated. You would need a knoup micro or a scratch type tester to get something that would represent the hardness of the bullet surface.

[MGnoob]

OuchHot! exactly right i know i am not getting an accurate reading to hardness through 2 different metals i still feel the reading is relevant when compare what we are comparing.This is also why i specfied my hardness tester

swheele Thank you , that is what i am asking. if i had some gas-checks i would stack several and test those, as well as do the initial test i suggested.

JonB_in_Glencoe I don't think not being able to put in clear word would count as clever.there was a word i was trying to think of but i was just drawing a blank.
If your referring to my use of the quote...i never looked at a fmj as a "full lenght gascheck" but that is what it is isn't it?
As far as "Why" , I am completely satisfied with the projectiles i am making so it may not matter why they work so well. And while it is obvious that a copper jacket, gascheck, plating will effect hardness, i think it is the less accurate reading that "OUCHHOT" suggested that spawned the question. The jump in my hardness reading from 12-14 to 22-24 was just suprising to me...i mean why would if my core is 12-14 bn and store bought ones are 16-18. why are my plated projectile only.0035" harder than a .010" berries plated or a much thicked FMJ. Maybe the test isn't accurate but i would still think it would show which ones are overall harder. Thankyou for offering to send me those, i believe dan cash will be providing the info and i'll pm you if he never gets back to us.

Dan cash, thank you i just figured someone had gaschecks and the same tester and i apprecriate you satisfying my curiousity

[MGnoob]

I've got to ask everyone whose replied or read this so far
1.Is this a stupid question?
2.if you understand what i am getting at how would you word the question?
I struggle posting a coherent thought, and read the sticky "why some will do better here than others" or to paraphrase don't ask stupid question that have already been answered, and/or not well thought out.

[MGnoob]

It is possible the readings aren't accurate but i was thinking it could be the alloy of copper i am using to plate. Also copper come Full hard, half hard and i think 1/4 hard, as well as fully annealed.I wonder if the hardness of the anode used to plate maintains it hardness when plated..i would have thought the hardness would have somhow be lost.(this was just an assumption)
I am very curious to see Dan's number when he posts and we will have to take into account if the gaschecks are annealed?(IDK much about gaschecks other than a few hours of reading here). I am sure they vary by manufacturer.
I didn't want to turn this into a plating thread because it doesn't belong here........or does it....Is plating and jacketing a Full lenght gascheck?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

What you asked for, was fairly clear, except I don't understand why. Generally hardness isn't a factor with plated bullets...and copper plating is very different than Gas check metal or Jacket metal, so the comparison seemed useless.

At the time I posted on your thread, there was 100 views to your thread and only the one response by Goatwhiskers, which wasn't much help. Many times I've found if you ask for some info here and you don't explain "why" you are looking for this info, especially if it's a question that does NOT automatically ring with the "why"...then you are unlikely to get answers. So I thought I'd help you out and post what I posted.


btw, we have a more correct sub-forum for discussing plating bullets, it is right above this Gas Check sub-forum that you posted in, but for this request of checking hardness of GC'd boolits, this is the correct thread for that.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/foru...d-Alternatives

Coatings and Alternatives
The place where we discuss Epoxy, powder coating, plating and all such boolit coverings

Good Luck,
Jon

[MGnoob]

Thanks for the input on the thread and i could see why you wouldn't understand why.
"Generally hardness isn't a factor with plated bullets" i would tend to agree with you except..... Hardness is a factor in plated rifle bullets especially in semi-auto rifles.
i find slightly harder will withstand impact with the feeding ramp, although i am still working on accuracy of the load..softer seem more accurate, but with higher fps the accuracy of the softer projectile drops off.
I also acknowledge that "softer seem more accurate" is too general of a statement.....maybe with a few more adjustment i'll get my higher fps plated projectiles as accurate as my low fps coated/naked projectiles. i want to try ramshot tac over the ramshot extermintaor. Since i am loading 62 grain projectiles instead of the 55 grain projectiles it might make all the difference. It's just still hard to get powder right now

[OuchHot!]

I certainly don't discount the question as stupid, not at all. I am not an expert at plating but I do not think that there can be any relevance to the hardness or annealing of the anode. The metal goes into solution as ions before being deposited. A high current (and deposition rate) may cause foreign inclusions. I expect that you get pure elemental copper and the grain size might be affected by current density, etc. The grain size may very well impact the friction of the coating and the bore....I think that is one reason I tend to get more fouling from plated bullets. I think the plating is dead soft Cu with some variation in grain size due to solution strength and current.

[MGnoob]

My gain size is very fine with little to no iron contamination.I have no means to measure this, but a great indicator is that the lube groove is plated the same as the rest of the projectile.without a fine grain you don't get a good "throw" into holes and recessed areas.

"The metal goes into solution as ions before being deposited" This is why originally just disregarded the temper of the alloy.
Can ions retain there temper? This discussion just exceeded my level of education. Anyway when my 2 new 1/2"x6"x6" anodes show up i'll see what we learn.They are half-hard.

I am hopeful somone will chime in with some test readings, so i can compare readings of a .004" gascheck projectile vs .0035 plated projectile.

[mikeym1a]

This is a curious post. I take it you are casting PB alloy boolits, and then copper plating them. How thick is your plating? Have you fired any as yet to test how the plating holds up? I was considering this some time ago, before I got into paper patching, and my research showed that the thin copper plate was stripped off by the rifling, and did not contribute to accuracy. I am interested in the results of your experiments. mikey

[Dan Cash]

As promised but a day and a half late, I have used a Cabine Tree tester on a 31141 bullet with a copper gas check seated. The check is .0175 thick. The nose of the bullet tests at 14 BnH and the checked base is appx 22 BnH. Hope this helps.

[MGnoob]

i've shot about 5k pistol with 1500 more loaded rdy to shoot, i also have another 2500-3k waiting to be loaded
i've shot almost 2k rifle projectiles with about 1k more loaded and rdy to shoot and about 500 waiting to be loaded

never recovered any pistol rounds and with the steel backstop i doubt there much left to look at.
i recovered several rifle projectiles that just happen to be stuck in the last layers of about 8 5 gallon buckets insider themselves. they more than likely skipped off the the ground before entering the buckets and failing to leave.some look just like they did before i shot them, other were smashed noses or just pieces from coming off the steel tartget and landing in the bucket.
I got my form 4 approved and recieved my RDIAS.. so when i am up and running full auto. i'm going to shoot a few thousand and see if there is any copper flakes/debries stuck in the gastube or bcg. if not i am going to shout thousands though some gaspiston uppers and see if anything gets fouled up there.I would be more concerned if shooting through a suppressor but since i can't own one it doesn't matter.

As far as i can tell now the plating seem quite durrable if done properly ihave scrapped 10k+ failed plating attempt but my last 10 batches have been consistent and flawless.
i plate .0035 for pistol and .004 for rifle. i used to go thicker but i have found this is what works for me best.

Everyone always say something like "experimenting is fun" and while i agree, i have broke through the experimenting threshold and it isn't an experiment anymore...i will never buy a projectile again, plated boolits feed the best through reloading equipment/bullet feeders and are less smokey, dirty then lubed/cast.My pistol round are very accurate perfected for the powder weight i am using. my rifle bullets still leave alittle to be desired.. but as i said earlier a powderc hange may be in order. i only use powders with a high volume that prevents double charging a case for safety reasons.

*edit* all projectiles i discussed are WW. Also i only air-cool now that i am plating them water dropped is unnecessary for me.

[MGnoob]

Thanks alot Dan, i'm going to do some thinking before i comment on that, Much appreciated

[MGnoob]

I had to explain the "why" and now this is more about plating than gascheks so here goes.
Are my plated projectiles still boolits?
Is fmj or copper plating a full lenght gascheck?

The projectile in the middle are from the 1st attempts and the shiny one are after i added the brightning agent to the solution.
http://s1339.photobucket.com/user/MG...tml?sort=3&o=0

[swheeler]

MGnoob those are some fine looking bullets, good job.