Safe fillers in bottle neck cases?

[swheeler]

Can we fight about whether or not we are fighting?

This isn't even close to a fight. This is a discussion about what Aussie made powders are available here and the differences in what we call them as opposed to what they call them.

Very good, I thought I had missed something in translation. It happens when you get "up there"

[runfiverun]

I know somewhere out there, there is a cross over sheet/chart from the adi 22 or whatever numbers to the H-3&4 numbers we use here.
it's confusing talking about the same thing with different numbers.
it's like having a Canadian blender on a frac crew, they measure [hectare] liters and we measure gallons/barrels the math never seems to come out , yet the job gets done somehow...

[swheeler]

AS30N=Clays AP50N = (No Hodgdon) AS50N = International AP70N = Universal AP100 = (No Hodgdon) AR2205 = H4227 AR2207 = H4198 AR2219 = H322 Bench Mark1 = (No Hodgdon) Bench Mark2 = BenchMark

AR2206 = (No Hodgdon) AR2206H = H4895 AR2208 = Varget AR2209 = H4350 AR2213 = (Discontinued) AR2213SC = H4831 AR2217 = H1000 AR2225 = Retumbo AR2218 = H50BMG

Heres what I use

[PAT303]

What fighting??????????????????????

Yeh what fighting??,don't you guys get surplus 4831 as well as ADI?,there would be pre ADI stuff around,wasn't it made in Scotland?. Pat

[swheeler]

Yeh what fighting??,don't you guys get surplus 4831 as well as ADI?,there would be pre ADI stuff around,wasn't it made in Scotland?. Pat

Pat-Pat_Pat I haven't bought surplus 4831(sold by Hodgdon-manuf by Dupont) since the mid 1970's, IMR 4831 was introduced in 1971 and I refused to pay 3.50 per pound so still used surplus 4831. The last H4831 made in Scotland I bought was about 1995, the next year Hodgdon introduced their Extreme line with Varget(ADI) and a year later they switched to ADI manuf. Believe me I've tried plenty of the extreme line and they are POSITION SENSITIVE in reduced loadings, temp insensitivity(that too is debatable-but better than other single base extrudeds )are not same. I can assure you noone in their right mind will load their 300 win mag with 60% of max of H4831/2213 with out using a filler. We do see where it has been done(darwin/Youtube vids) but probably last time they will try that goodday mate

[longbow]

Back to "safe fillers"...

I have been using COW for several years now and have no complaints. Originally, my intent was to use slower powders I had on hand but light charges with COW filler so I didn't wind up with a SEE or hangfire or...? using light loads. Reloading supplies are not generally readily available around here so I make do.

In any case, I wound up with several pounds of IMR4227 and have a few PB moulds. Well, my .303's were gas cutting fairly badly with anything more than light loads so I decided to try the COW filler over IMR4227. Accuracy picked up, leading and gas cutting stopped and I was happy!

I worked up loads with the filler and saw no signs of pressure issues, no signs of excessive brass stretching or anything else bad.

What's not to like? Cheap and easy, better accuracy. 100% loading density so no chance of double charges using light loads, no leading, better accuracy, higher velocities, and more I am sure.

As for the "COW filler absorbs moisture form the atmosphere", I loaded a bunch then took 5 and put them in an open Ziploc baggie and put it outside under a tree for 10 months ( I was aiming for a year but got impatient). They weren't directly exposed to snow and rain but certainly to humidity and temperature changes from about 94 F to -4 F over the year and whatever humidity Mother Nature provided.

I pulled the boolits to check and the COW was no different than the same cartridges stored in my basement loading room for the same length of time. They shot the same and no signs of caking, pressure or any other" bad" stuff.

I am sure that plastic shot buffer is as good or probably better but so far I have no complaints using COW.

It works for me.

Longbow

[andym79]

I can assure you no one in their right mind will load their 300 win mag with 60% of max of H4831/2213 with out using a filler. We do see where it has been done(darwin/Youtube vids) but probably last time they will try that goodday mate

I can't seem to find the video, could you post the link?

[andym79]

So with Dacron there is one big rule #1

NEVER EVER compress it heavily on the powder so that it leaves an air gap in the shoulder area before the bullet?

I guess from that best to leave it fluffed up in the neck and always store the round projectile up?

[Larry Gibson]

andym79

So with Dacron there is one big rule #1

NEVER EVER compress it heavily on the powder so that it leaves an air gap in the shoulder area before the bullet?

That is correct.

I guess from that best to leave it fluffed up in the neck and always store the round projectile up?

If you've used enough Dacron so it is a fluffed up "filler" (filled the air space between the powder and base of the bullet) it can be stored and carried any way you want. The powder should not migrate.

Larry Gibson

[RobS]

andym79

So with Dacron there is one big rule #1

NEVER EVER compress it heavily on the powder so that it leaves an air gap in the shoulder area before the bullet?

That is correct.

I guess from that best to leave it fluffed up in the neck and always store the round projectile up?

If you've used enough Dacron so it is a fluffed up "filler" (filled the air space between the powder and base of the bullet) it can be stored and carried any way you want. The powder should not migrate.

Larry Gibson

That's been my experience with the extruded powders I use.

[303Guy]

I've fired thousands of these loads and never had an issue,I personally feel that our powder is not only temperature stable but is also not position sensitive,the best powder in the world. Pat

I tend to agree. That's why Hodgdon contracts so many of it's powder from ADI. I've found that H4350(AR2209) can go quite low in load density in my Brits but that is with heavier boolits. I like Dacron filler for a slightly different reason - it stops powder from spilling out into the action should a boolit get pulled out on extracting an unfired round. That because of the paper patched boolits being not too tight in the neck and fairly tight fit in the throat. There is a downside though and that is that if one doesn't notice, that boolit can stay there until another round is chambered and pushes the boolit into the case! But enough H4350 will stop that. Not so much with H4227.

Well, my .303's were gas cutting fairly badly with anything more than light loads so I decided to try the COW filler over IMR4227.

Now that you mention it, I've tried corn grits over H4227 but I didn't range test them. I did fire them into my boolit trap. Two things happen, velocities (and pressure) goes up and muzzle blast goes down. Oh yes, the bore stays clean and the boolit bases get cupped and carry an amount of grits with them. They were plain based and rather soft alloy.

I was using Dacron even over fairy full loads to buffer the boolit base from powder peening and it worked. That and powder spilling. To that end I would compress the Dacron slightly. Not filling a 3/4 empty case mind you, only about 10% volume or less.

[singleshot]

My experience mirrors Longbow's with both COW and used/dried coffee grounds. Now I use Dacron with the faster stuff (2 grains of Red Dot with Dacron under a 55 grain cast lead Bator works wonderfully in my 223 bolt-action, at least minute of bunny at 50 yards and in.) As mentioned, another benefit with COW is always having 100% load density and no chance of boolit setback.

[303Guy]

I like wheat bran (sieved) or wheat germ but I tried wheat bran over small charges of clays under a light boolit. Shot great but there were signs of high pressure in the neck area (with no primer pressure signs) and channelling in the bran, leaving some behind in the case. I would also sometimes find rings of the stuff in the shoulder corner. Wheat germ doesn't do that. But wheat bran seemed to prevent gas cutting and bore leading and cleaned the bore quite well. I've never tried COW mostly because I don't know exactly what is is and can't find any on our shelves.

[longbow]

I started out with cornmeal being as it was a carryover filler from my BP days but wasn't getting terrific accuracy. Whilst searching for answers I found David Southall's articles at http://www.303british.com/id37.html. I managed to get his e-mail address so contacted him and we had an interesting and educational exchange of info. At least I learned a lot.

David advised that he found COW to provide better accuracy than cornmeal where fillers were required/desirable and had some good powder suggestions as well. I gave it a try and sure enough things worked out better.

Now to qualify, I have worked loads up from quite light using the filler all the way by increasing powder charge and decreasing filler a I worked up. Pressure certainly increased but as long as it is predictable and within safe limits, who cares?

I have not worked up super hot loads by any means. Mostly my goal was typical cast boolit velocities for my .303 Lee Enfields with decent accuracy. I also found I could push PB boolits harder and still get good results. I have several PB .303 moulds and being lazy and cheap, don't like using gas checks unless I have to.

As for filler left in the cases after firing, I have as yet to find any. .303 British has a very small shoulder though so this may not be the case in other cartridges with steeper shoulders or larger body to neck.

One day I will get around to testing out shotgun buffer as filler for which we have several threads here and which I have found other reloading info on seemingly all positive as long as the filler is used appropriately and loads worked up with the filler.

FWIW

Longbow

[303Guy]

.303 British has a very small shoulder though

Some have a blown out chamber with a sharp neck/shoulder junction. It's one of these that left a ring of wheat bran. The other was channelling through the filler. It could have been a result of bugs spinning silk in the bran - these were cartridges that had been stored for a while. Either way, I do not recommend wheat bran for filling large spaces. I think I'll try COW if I can find some (or make some). On the COW absorbing moisture from the air - the loaded cartridge should be sealed I would think.

[andym79]

I shoot 3P and field rifle so need accuracy over speed,I also don't want heat,my rifle shoots inside the xring at 50m with 10-11- 12grns of trail boss,inside the xring at 100 using 18-19-20grns of 2205 and not as good at 200 using 35grns of 2213.I have the original shot buffer and will use it to get my 200m groups smaller.Last weekend 40-41-42grns of 2217 gave no pressure but not much accuracy either,21-22-23grns of 2207 shot very well but didn't group any better than 2205 at 100,2206H shot excellent at 100,all loads used CBE 150grn or NOE 269145. Pat

Have you done any shooting with AR2208 (Varget) in the 6.5x55? Say between 26-29 grains?

[longbow]

Cream 'O Wheat is made from wheat semolina. Similar to grits but finer and quite a bit finer than cornmeal which may be why it works better ~ better gas seal.

From my experience and testing there is no issue or at least no significant issue of moisture being absorbed from the air. After all there is neck tension and lube grooves full of grease to seal. The loaded cartridges I left outside for 10 months performed just the same as those left in the basement and there were no pressure signs from either even though when I pulled boolits from some the COW was somewhat compressed and hard ~ same for cartridges from outside and left in the basement (and no my basement is not a deep, dark, damp, dungeon).

Not sure I would use cereal filler for cartridges like 7mm Mag. or .264 Win. which are both large volume cartridges with steep, sharp shoulders and small neck/bore. However, so far with .303 British, no problems.

Longbow

[barrabruce]

I can say that using Dacron in MY 30-30 has helped keep groups tighter for me.
Haven't tried the 2205 but used 2207 quite a bit with a tuft or Dacron.
I too Paper patch and althou I'm using up a few tins of 2206 27 grns seems about right for me I use a tuft to fill the neck.
Mainly for if I debullet a round I don't get powder in everything.
I'm using a grease cookie under my bullet to try and it stops lube migrating into the powder.

I use Dacron for light loads of 2.5-4 gns bulleye in the 30-30 as it shoots better for me.
I feather it out and its just a fluff seated on the powder up to the top of the case neck.
Then seat bullet.I had no ill effects doing this at all as far as I can tell.

Want you don't want to do is cram a case full Dacron sheeting.
Other cases I have no experience with.

Hope it helps
Barra

[303Guy]

Thanks, longbow. I shall look into trying some.

Have you tried 2209 in your 30-30, barra? They say a slightly compressed load works well with cast (should work with PP too).