tested Hogtamers load at 100yds today.
Beautiful windless day, HOT; easily 90 degrees at 0900.
Load is; 12ga federal Hull, 209A primer, 45gr A.Steel, X12X, felt cushion wad, Modern minie ball 440gr in hollowed out Hubel Sabot dusted w hexagonal boron nitride and crimp.
half of the loads were fold crimped and half were roll crimped.
Here they looked before firing.
C-
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"...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman
Here is the fold crimped target: not so good. Maybe one was a called flyer. But this load didnt agree w my gun (which BTW was/is a rem 870 w 24" rifled bore, open iron sights, and the old recoil reducing knoxx-stock- which really helped w this healthy load!)
Sorry it son its side. rotate CW 90deg. POI was the purple +. they shot loa and tended left, w 2 landing nice and close. but others spread out pretty far.
Last edited by cpileri; 07-03-2014 at 05:18 PM.
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"...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman
here are some recovered components from the fold crimp loads.
The sabot opened nicely. The hulls ejected fine here and all day, no extractor marks on the rims. no other problems noted.
Last edited by cpileri; 07-03-2014 at 05:19 PM.
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"...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman
Next up were the roll crimped loads. These shot much better. For these, the POI was the top of the target where i placed a little piece of purple tape to help me center the sights. Group was 7" and drop was abt 8" and a little left of POI. Again, rotated in your mind 90deg Clockwise.
SO is a 7" at 100 yds w iron sights close enough to the elusive 4-6" at 100m everyone seems to want?
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"...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman
roll crimp recovered components
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"...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman
I have no idea who the slug apparently swaged into a square shape! Is it so soft and the acceleration so brisk that it smooshed back into the sabot (or rather, the sabot smooshed it as it accelerated into the slug)?
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"...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman
And for fun i tried my 1043gr 12ga load in 3.5" brass hulls at 100yds.
Not great, but not bad.
Last edited by cpileri; 07-03-2014 at 05:19 PM.
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"...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman
1043 grn slugs....Carl, you jes aint rite boy! Timely post. I'm several loads down the road and will try to post tomorrow, pics of my 175yd.....yes, 175 yd target. learned a lot about these things the last several weeks and the roll crimp is the only stone unturned for me. What's your explanation of improved groups with rolled vs crimped?
MY explanation? Dumb luck. Blind pig finding truffle. i dunno.
but it definitely seems to be the difference.
I did find a few more wad petals at range pickup, one hubel sabot was really spalyed out FLAT, evenly flat, but flat. Then i found one where 3 petals were splayed out but one was pointed inwards. And in another place, i found a loose petal all by itself.
Any one of these could explain a flyer but especially the one with the petal caved inwards; certainly seems to indicate uneven release of the slug.
Maybe the fold crimps allow for more uneven release? or if i fold a little too hard, it folds the petal inward at loading, but since I cant see it i dont know it whereas on roll crimping I stop at the top of the sabot?
Maybe w a scope I could tighten up the group a little to get that magic 4" at 100?
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"...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman
That plus I didnt want you to think i was blowing off testing your load. I just am getting swamped at work and on my few off moments, i load the hulls. Then on my next off day, I have somethign to do for someone (not shooting, then finally get a shooting day. just takes time.
God, work, and family really have interfered w my shooting habit.
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"...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman
Group in post #4 looks real good to me.
Good on you with those priorities! My best load to date (and it's pretty good) is 2 3/4" fed hull, regular 209 primer, 37 grns steel powder, 1 x12x gas seal, 1 - 1/4" felt wad and Lyman old style 490 grn minie 575213. Polish the shoulders a bit and into the unaltered sabot, 8 pt. crimp. terminal ballistics perfect mushroom into hard clay bank w/half COWW and half pure lead slugs...and it's shootable. Comparable recoil to Reminton Sluggers 1 oz loads. That's more than most folks can stand without a sled. Maybe better velocity as trajectory is much flatter than I could have imagined with 1 1/8 oz lead. Will get pics tomorrow.
Can you post a pic so that the modification to the slug, polishing the shoulders, is apparent?
I am interested in getting this to shoot better.
I usually use the 870 as my shot-gun, as in pellets, and use the NEF for slugs. but I switched it out to test your loads. but if they work this well, and can be hard cast for deer season... well, I can change.
C-
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"...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman
Attachment 109703175 yd result. 2 of 5 in 8" circle from bench:
slug polished on shoulder before shot: Attachment 109704
recovered minie from clay bank: Attachment 109705
note "squared" base: Attachment 109706
my professional shooter. a 'Nam era LRRP operator who left his left leg near the Cambodian border - a "lone survivor" scenario except all 6 survived "their own little war" for 2 days running against NVA trying to scoot back into Cambodia where we were not supposed (!) to cross. Many NVA did not survive as my dear friend and hero blocked their escape - 6 vs. hundreds. Much of what his unit did during the '67 - '68 time frame is still classified and I can only come up with snippets of official information. Larry is amazing with any weapon and 2 weeks ago put 8- .308 bullets in a 6" circle at 800 yds. Have video of one shot to document recoil but can't load it: Attachment 109707
He did shoot a 4" os to os group @ 100 yds but don't have target. Recovered sabot:
Attachment 109708
I shot a 3" group @ 75 yds (yellow hilite). This is an amazing (to me) hunting load. Ed Hubel did send me some 440 grn slugs that are a better fit (a tad shorter) but the base is not as thick. My mold is supposed to drop 460 grns but come out @ 495. The only tweaking that remains for me is to compare a roll crimp. But for an off-the-shelf 870 Express with home brew heavy duty scope mounts this may be. as good as it gets.
Last edited by Hogtamer; 07-04-2014 at 10:14 PM.
The squared base is because lead swaged with shotgun powders harder, faster,
start to peak pressure, that is why I like 4759.
The new style slugs I have, the shoulder is right at the inside ridge, so on some
I shaved it off with blade, scraping some down so that the sabot isn't bulged out,
and eliminates bulged shells when loading. I also pushed some into a die
I have and swaged that shoulder down, and works good.
Best results are--- if that inside ridge is above the curve of the slug or if slug is long
one, have that ridge in a groove in the minie bullet. Ed
besides the gentler shove of the 4759, would casting of harder alloy be useful?Originally Posted by hubel458
Since these were fired from rifled barrels, I cant imagine the squaring of the slug isn't hurting accuracy.
Also, any picture of the new slug you mentioned?
C-
____________
"...the civil libertarians and rationalists who are ever on the alert to oppose tyranny "failed to take into account man's almost infinite appetite for distractions." In 1984, Orwell added, people are controlled by inflicting pain. In Brave New World, they are controlled by inflicting pleasure. In short, Orwell feared that what we fear will ruin us. Huxley feared that what we desire will ruin us. This book is about the possibility that Huxley, not Orwell, was right.” -N.Postman
The one on lower left new style, top old style, right
one that Dixie Gunworks sells/Got shoulder swaged
a little on new, where inside ridge is, New style in pic 500gr,
old style 440 gr.. Ed
They can be cast out of harder alloy, if you get BHN
hardness of 18 it shouldn't deform base.Ed
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