Have some ? on loading BP pistol cartridges (38 spl)

[bedbugbilly]

Another gentleman had a thread on here in regards to loading 45 Colt Long with BP - I didn't want to hi-jack his thread to ask these questions.

I have shot BP for 50 years and a lot of cap and ball pistol ('51 Navies). I reload 38 spl and 9mm but want to try some BP cartridges in my New Vaquero and I'm hoping to get a 1872 open top as soon as I can find one.

I have 2F and 3F Goex. I plan on sorting 100 casings out with the same headstamp (I may break in to my box of 500 new Starline casings I've been hiding on the back of the shelf) and dedicate them to BP only. I also have some 38 Colt Short and 38 Colt Long that I want to play with.

I cast my own - have molds for WC, SWC and sever RN. I plan on starting out with the 160 gr Round Nose.

I have read the article by Chuck Raithel which pertains to BP rifle cartridges - a great article! But, I have several questions after reading it. I know this isn't rocket science but I want to do it "right".

I understand how to figure the COAL and the seating depth of the particular boolit I'm going to use as well as the wad to come up with the case fill. I was hoping to find some of the vegetable wads but may have to make my own as T of the W is out of them for 38s.

My questions are:

1. I will figure out the case fill needed and then measure by volume. It's my understanding that I need to leave the powder level in the case about 1/16" high in order to get a compressed load. On pistol cartridges - such as the 38 - do you need to use a "drop tube" to fill the case or can you measure the powder and then fill the case through a regular powder funnel? If filled that way, do you gently jiggle the case to let the powder settle until you are 1/16" above the case fill line and then compress - or just fill through the funnel setting over the case mouth and then compress?

2. Is it necessary to use a "compression plug" on a pistol cartridge such as this or can you compress the load when seating the boolit? (After the card has been inserted over the powder.)

Also, if cartridges are loaded and compressed by bullet seating - is there any problem if loaded cartridges are moved - as in being in a cartridge box boolit down and in a car which hits bumps, etc. such as on the way to the range to shoot - or boolit down in a gun belt over a period of time being carried around such as hiking, etc.? Will the compressed load settle any further causing an air gap in the case? (I know - probably worrying too much!)

3. Lube - I understand the purpose of lube in regards to keeping fouling soft, etc. and also the use of a card to keep lube from migrating to the powder charge. On my cap & ball revolvers as well as rifles, muskets, etc., I have used a lube for years with great success that is made from one wax toilet ring and one pound of Crisco melted together. However, it is a "softer" lube. I do not have a lube machine so will have to either pan lube my boolits or finger lube the grooves prior to seating. My quandary is this. I'm in Michigan during the summer - can be hot and muggy and usually in southern Arizona during the winter - cooler in the mornings but then it can get up in the 80s and of course lots of sun.

The softer the lube, the easier it is to "run" when warm. I looked at Chuck Raithel formulas that he listed. If I "stiffen" my lube with additional beeswax so it is "firmer" - will this still take care of the fouling - enough so that say fifty rounds could be fired without having to swab and clean the barrel and possibly the chambers of a revolver as well as keeping the cylinder pin clean enough to prevent cylinder drag? Using my toilet ring wax/Crisco mix, I can easily load and shoot upwards of a dozen or more cylinders fully loaded without a problem. Does anyone know what was used originally for lube on the early BP pistol cartridges such as the 45 Colt, etc. that would have been exposed to all kinds of temperatures during shipment to different parts of the country?

4. Which is a better choice for the 38s - 2F or 3F. I have often used 2F in my C & B revolvers when I've been short or out of 3F and all seems to work just fine. What differences would occur between the two different granulations in regards to velocity, performance, accuracy, etc. Anything that great?

I apologize for the length of this. I have been searching for more detailed information in regards to BP pistol cartridge loading but most of what is out there that I'm running across is in regards to rifle cartridges. As I said, I'm sure I'm probably "over thinking" this but I want to do it right and safely - I'm too old to screw up and loose any body parts!

It would be great if someone who is experienced could do a "sticky" on the basics of loading BP pistol cartridges - the steps and what to do as far as compressed loads and the basic items you need (as opposed to loading BP rifle cartridges), the steps, etc. so "noobs" to BP pistol cartridge loading wouldn't be asking the same questions all the time. LOL

Thanks for any help and information on this that you experienced folks can offer. It's greatly appreciated!

[John Boy]

1. No drop tube required
2. No compression plug & no card needed
3. Lubed bullet only needed
4. 38 Colt Short... 130gr lubed bullet - 15gr FFFg - 700 fps
38 Colt Long ... 150gr lubed bullet - 18gr FFFg - 770 fps
BP revolver reloads: Bell case mouth - put powder in case - seat the bullet which will compress the powder & crimp = Done

[Dale53]

I have a good bit of experience with black powder cartridges in both rifles and pistols. I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.

1 - It IS important to use the same brand of cases simply because the volume can vary between cases. Use a black powder measure and drop the powder direct into the case. It IS a bit better to use a drop tube to "compact" the powder but it isn't absolutely necessary. Using soft bullets (as typical with black powder - as soft as 30/1 lead/tin) you can compress the powder 1/16" with the bullet with out damage. That is enough compression. You do NOT need wads, period.

2 - Already answered..

3 - SPG is an excellent commercial lube but I used mostly home mixed Emmert's lube (50% pure natural beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% Canola Oil. I later dropped the Canola oil and substitued Anhydrous Lanolin for longer lube life. I had NO problem with hot weather but I did not leave it in a car in the sun (temps can go over 135 degrees there). If you have to have it in the car closed up simply put it in a cooler. I often did this at a match. The number of rounds you can shoot before cleaning seems to be revolver specific. My .45 Colt Vaquero can regularly go 70 rounds before the cylinder starts dragging due to fouling. A quick five minute clean up and I am ready to go again.

4 - There is a pretty good difference between 2F and 3F. I recommend 3F for .38 Special. However, if you have a chronograph run the tests yourself. There is also a good difference between brands of black powder. In the .45 colt using a 250 gr bullet Elephant 2f would give about 750 fps whereas Swiss 3F would give well over 900 fps. More velocity (and recoil) with Swiss. Goex was about in between.

Good luck! You'll have a blast! (Pun intended!)

FWIW
Dale53

[StrawHat]

The answers you have recieved are pretty much spot on. I load with a measure and drop right into the case. The lubed boolit gives me the compression I need. In revolvers, the need for lube is less than in a rifle, the lube on the bullet is sufficient. I have used 3F and 2F in larger cases, 44 Colt and 45 long Colt, the velocity nod goes to the finer granualtion. I would imagine it to be the same in the 38 Special case.

['74 sharps]

In my 45 Colt, I use 2F, which is the equivalent of the original load. Bullets can be dipped lubed, and I use a veg fiber wad. For cylinder pin lube, Permatex AntiSeize works well. Have gone 200 rounds with no issues. As long as the charge is compressed, brand of case makes no difference, and not necessary to dedicate brass for bp only.

[Springfield]

I shoot 2-3 Cowboy Action matches a month, and I agree with John Boy.

BP revolver reloads: Bell case mouth - put powder in case - seat the bullet which will compress the powder & crimp = Done

I usually use ffg, but fffg wokrs fine also. Just use enough soft lube to keep things running. Lube the base pin with grease, oil will not hold up as long.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you all for the information - makes it much clearer! It looks like I just need to sit down and get by feet wet with the process! I'm hoping to do that this weekend when I have some time and will probably play around with either doing some 38 Colt Long or some 38 Spl. Many thanks again!

[doc1876]

the only thing I an add here is a big yes to the grease. I wish I had a dollar for every revolver lock up I have seen due to improper lube. This AntiSeize is new to me, and I am going to try it some time, however I use #2 axel grease on everything, including the working, but especially the cylinder pin. It seems to keep the parts from getting powder on them, as the holy black does get EVERYWHERE.

[Safeshot]

You might want to consider Alliant "MZ" Black Powder substitute. It has good reviews and is reported to produce "some smoke". It is supposed to be easy to clean. Good luck.

[StrawHat]

Clean up with black powder is so easy I can not believe some substitute could be easier.