30 Caliber Boolits Velocity?

[davidheart]

You need to size to 311, my 336 likes it. The marlin trigger is pretty heavy. The Cu alloy is good. Forget the RPMTH, your not BR shooting. Shooting a levergun at full power is not easy, support it at the receiver when you can. Slip a $1 bill between the forearm & barrel to find any binding. LeverE powder is good when you can find it.

Will do. Hopefully be able to get to some testing later this week.

The local shop has several pounds of LeverE Powder. I'll need to pick up a couple pounds when I can.

[davidheart]

Just loaded from H335 using the copper alloy boolits sized .311. From 23 to 30 grains the best groups were at 24gr. I found the velocity to be about 1696-1728fps at that charge. Groups with 23 and 24 grains were about 1 inch and 1 1/5 inch at 50 yards. Groups opened up to 4 inches the higher the charge. 2 groups at 23gr and tested 2 24gr grain groups. Grouping was more consistent in the Ranch Dog NOE mold than the Lyman style boolit but I only shot that one with 24gr charge. Perhaps the lyman boolit with cast WW will respond better at higher velocities?

So from what I could see, at least in the copper alloy I need to keep the velocities low to keep good groups in my rifle. 24gr H335 1700fps groups 1-1.5 inch. 32gr H4831 1670fps groups .75-1 inch at 50 yards.

This all using 2.5x scout scope, Marlin 336w 20 inch microgroove barrel. Barrel was mildly cleaned between groups and brought out of the sun and allowed to cool before shooting again. 24gr was my first group and then increasing. Then returning to shoot 5 23gr and 5 24gr loads. Results between both 24gr loads were consistent. This all using Copper Alloy.

Boolit Data is: 2.3sb 3.3sn .909cu Sized .311 w/ Hornady GC HT @ 440 Ice Water Quenched +/- 20bhn LSStuff 2500 Lube Cast on 4/1/2014

I also shot one of these at a stack of soaked phone books and... the results were immense. Possibly thanks to the meplat. I wish I could post pictures here.

[Motor]

New to the forum here but have been benefitting from it for some time.

This thread seems like a good place to get a couple answers for my velocity testing results.

The rifle is a M39 Fin 7.62x54R. I cast the Lee 2R 160gr TL for it. I use a lead/linotype mix. I use the 160 basically as cast which is about .3135" and for my super sonic loads I gas check them using a .314" size die. The rifle sluged at .3115"

I tried a few different powder and boolit up to 25bhn but could never get good results with anything over 2000f/s. Buy the gray puff in front of the rifle I think it was stripping the bullet.

I ended up with a nice accurate load using Unique that shoots 1850f/s with 16bhn gc boolit but always wondered why I could not get them to do good going into the low 2000's.

BTW: My favorite load is sub-sonic using the 160 at 12bhn.

Motor

[Larry Gibson]

New to the forum here but have been benefitting from it for some time.

This thread seems like a good place to get a couple answers for my velocity testing results.

The rifle is a M39 Fin 7.62x54R. I cast the Lee 2R 160gr TL for it. I use a lead/linotype mix. I use the 160 basically as cast which is about .3135" and for my super sonic loads I gas check them using a .314" size die. The rifle sluged at .3115"

I tried a few different powder and boolit up to 25bhn but could never get good results with anything over 2000f/s. Buy the gray puff in front of the rifle I think it was stripping the bullet.

I ended up with a nice accurate load using Unique that shoots 1850f/s with 16bhn gc boolit but always wondered why I could not get them to do good going into the low 2000's.

BTW: My favorite load is sub-sonic using the 160 at 12bhn.Motor

Motor

Read the following threads, particularly the explanations of the RPM Threshold and the test data confirming it. You will then understand what is specifically happening to the accuracy as you shoot above 2000 fps with your cast bullet, load and rifle.

Now before all the usual pundits go off understand I am only telling Motor what is happening to his load in his rifle that he is using. I am not telling him he "can't" do anything. Motor, you will also read some of their usual arguments attempting to disprove what you have found to happen with your loads. The reality of what you have found proves the RPM Threshold exists. What you choose to do with it, after reading the mentioned threads and you understand it, is up to you.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?208186-RPM-Threshold-barrel-twist-velocity-chart

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?245302-RPM-Threshold-A-Tale-of-Three-Twists-Chapter-II


Larry Gibson

[popper]

I don't use Sn in my alloy, just the Sb & Cu. I think you will find full boat loads in a 336 take some practice to get the groups size down, same problem you have. I can push the alloy to 2500 in the 308 AR. I'm recoil sensitive. Yes, terminal performance is devastating.

[Motor]

Larry,
I read the info and understand. I have seen 1 in 7 twist .223 blow apart thin jacketed varmint bullets in the air as well as at least 2 other calibers with similar constructed bullets.

However judging by the amount of lead in my bore and the gray smoke out in front of the muzzle I have to think the boolit was being shot through the rifling in stead of turning with it. This was even with boolits that were 25 bhn.

It makes me wonder how guys are getting low to mid 2000s f/s. Must be with different style boolit?

[Larry Gibson]

Motor

What powder?

What load?

Larry Gibson

[Motor]

Forgive me it's been a couple years and I usually don't save loads that don't work. IIRC it was a "reduce-able" rifle powder like IMR-4064 or H-4895. The data used was supposed to produce 2200 to 2400 f/s.

I was hoping someone here would chime in with a load that worked for them. I'm sure there is a way weather it be a different style bullet or particular powder.

I was using a 160gr Lee 2R TL with gas check. As I said I even cast some at 25bhn and still got the same results.

Motor

[Larry Gibson]

Motor

The data used was supposed to produce 2200 to 2400 f/s.

That "data" obviously exceeded the 160 gr Lee's capability in your M39 with a 9 1/2" twist. Also the Lee TL bullet most often doesn't carry enough lube for above 2000 fps. You might cast some and WQ them for a 24 - 25+ BHN. I suggest you try dropping the charge of 4895 or 4064 down to 25 gr and use a 3/4 gr Dacron filler. Work back up in 1 gr increments to 33 or 34 gr. The accuracy going south will tell you when enough is enough and it might get you to 2100 fps or so with useable accuracy. If you want higher velocity performance with the Lee TL bullet you might consider PPing or PCing the bullets. Other wise a better designed bullet is needed that carries sufficient lube.

Larry Gibson

[davidheart]

I think if my experience with cast boolits has taught me anything, it's that loading with cast boolits is NOT an exact science with common recipes. You work with theory and charge/diameter ranges and experiment the tar out of them until you find exactly what works for you. When I first started I was under false impression I'd be able to work up a load with a recipe somebody with my same rifle had already figured out and be shooting sub moa in no time like my J loads. Wrong.

You may find what lead does not afford you, Motor, in ease of duplicity it more than makes up in liberty to load whatever you want as much as you want. And when the smokeless powder runs out, by golly you can still urinate! :takinWiz:

[runfiverun]

that grey puff of smoke is your indicator.
you can even see it without getting any lead in your barrel, but i'll bet it's on your muzzle just like lube normally is.
anyway that ranch dog boolit is designed to work in the marlin lever rifles, overcoming their throat ummm generosity.

[leadman]

I shoot the 30-30 in a tapered 21" Contender carbine barrel with the Lyman 311041 boolit. Lubed with Carnuba Red, GC'd, water quenched clip on wheel weight alloy. I use H4895 powder and am getting over 2,000 fps with groups of about 1 1/2" at 100 yards. These boolits still expand in wet books and newspaper. Being water quenched they are hard enough to push to 2,000 fps but malleable enough to stay pretty much together when they hit something.
Haven't shot anything large yet with them, just coyotes and jack rabbits. On these they of course go all the way thru and I have not recovered any. Did shoot into some soft mud and they expanded well in it.
I did try other powders but H4895 was at the time yielded the highest velocity along with decent accuracy. It is also an Extreme powder so velocity does not vary much from cold to hot temperatures.

[Motor]

Great info guys, thanks. I do use that same bullet sized down to .311" in a Marlin 1893 with 10gr of Trail Boss. It flat out shoots great. I have not chroneyed that load but it is super sonic. I use 12bhn for those as well as for my sub-sonic 54R loads. Same bullet in the 54R just loaded as cast.

I WQ everything. Its just eaiser.

Motor

[pls1911]

Leadman beat me to it, but I certain confirm his methodology as well as his results.
Lots of good commentary above, so I'll simply add what works for me, and has made several converts to lever guns and cast bullets.
I shoot lots of calibers, but more 30-30 than anything else, and have been casting nearly 30 years.
I got started when I was shooting IHMSA Silhouette because I couldn't stand the cost of 400-500 jacketed bullets a month to feed the TC 14" 30-30.
With a fine mentor I learned many best practices at the start.
All my Marlin 30-30s ...1893s, 1936s, 36s, and 336s, Ballard or microgroove shoot very well with this combination, notwithstanding the bore size variations thrugh the years.
As cast BHN is about 12, 50/50 mix of decently pure lead (roofing lead), and a old batch of whatchagot blend of ww, babbit, monotype, linotype, pewter, and bar solder.
Heat treated 450 degrees for one hour, then quenched in ice water, these will measure 26-29 bhn after 24 hours ... DANGED HARD, but not brittle like linotype.
Gas checked and sized at .312, lubed with whatever is in the luber at the time, and re lubed with JPW/LLA, these bullets have proven accurate in all my .30 cal rifles and pistols at 1800-2000 fps with no leading...ever.
.30 Cal Bullets used have been RCBS 165-SIL, Lyman 31141 (beagled a little), SAECO #316, and Ranch Dog 165.
In .30-30, powder has settled to Reloader 7, 25-26 grains.
All bullets produce one shot kills on deer and hogs to 250+ pounds, slammed DRT with shoulder shot, full penetration through shoulders, spine and any gristle plate. Preferred bullets for hunting are the Ranch Dog for the HUGE meplat or SAECO #316 becuase it's simply flawless feeding though leverguns..
Clover leaf accuracy at 100 yards? I don't know, but with open sights set for a bit high at 25 yards, the KEAD (Kill 'Em All Dead) accuracy and effects on piles of pigs says it's must be good enough, if I do My part.
Again, assuming your bore is in good condition, it's all about fit to bore (size matters!), hardness, gas check, moderate pressure, and velocity .
Match these parameters and you will be very pleased with the results.