Lee tumble lube molds

[jmort]

"I have a problem with folks telling new reloaders that the Lee FCD is the "only way to go with reloading semi-auto ammo"."

Have never seen anyone say the handgun FCD is the "only" way to go. I have a problem with folks telling new reloaders that there is no place for the handgun FCD. Love "logic" like: "What did folks do before Lee introduced their FCD?" I wonder what did folks do before the introduction of electricity? What did folks do before the introduction of the automobile? It is irrelevant. There is good reason that the Lee Precision handgun FCDs are the highest rated dies on MidwayUSA. The FCD should not be used as a replacement for sizing or if it swages down over SAAMI spec boolits. The FCD promotes uniformity and reliability and that is a good thing. It has a place but should be used with common sense. If you get good results with unsized TL boolits then fire away. I like TL boolits and size most of them.

[prs]

I shot 20 round from each gun. No problems. Why bother adding more steps of everything is working?
I did make a dummy round for the 9mm lonevwolf barrel. I didn't use the factory crimp die like you suggested. Dropped right into the chamber? So eyou suggesting I shouldn't crimp it?

Consider the basic internal ballistics. Even when just loading plinking ammo, you should want consistency, you should desire the round to fire as cleanly as possible so as not to foul your firearm, you should take pride in doing things right. When you seat a boolit in a brass case and then swage that case and bullet down with the Carbide Factory Crimp Die, the case and boolit get smaller, but when the die is pulled off the round the case rebounds MORE than the lead boolit. Thus your precious stretch fit of the case over the boolit, your retention, is vastly decreased. That retention is important to the ignition of the gun powder. Given consistency, the more retention the better within the limits of the stretch fit of a case over a boolit/bullet. Signs of poor retention are inconsistent velocities, unburned powder residue in the fire arm, and more smoky discharge. Taken to extremes, you can get bloopers and hang fires and barrel obstruction. If your molds are a bit oversized as you note, but the size is consistent; that will help you get along with reasonable performance, at least they are all goofed-up the same, so to speak. If you size them, you will find the ones that are too small, the ones that will be the worse outliers of performance. If they are consistent, but a bit fat, use an internal sizer such as an M die or Cowboy die that is intended for that size and don't use the CFCD. Don't rely upon case mouth crimp to provide retention for ignition. Case mouth crimp is best used to keep revolver or lever action rifle rounds from having the boolit creep back into the case or for auto/semi-auto ammo to augment the fit of the case to the seat to the chamber. Your real retention needs to be that stretch fit. On this forum and others like ours, you will find that most members are "hand loaders" in the sense that the term implies taking pride in producing consistent and very high quality product. Even if we are just punching holes in pumpkins or hard steel plates or plinking with the kids.

prs

[prs]

Have never seen anyone say the handgun FCD is the "only" way to go. I have a problem with folks telling new reloaders that there is no place for the handgun FCD. Love "logic" like: "What did folks do before Lee introduced their FCD?" I wonder what did folks do before the introduction of electricity? What did folks do before the introduction of the automobile? It is irrelevant. There is good reason that the Lee Precision handgun FCDs are the highest rated dies on MidwayUSA. The FCD should not be used as a replacement for sizing or if it swages down over SAAMI spec boolits. The FCD promotes uniformity and reliability and that is a good thing. It has a place but should be used with common sense. If you get good results with unsized TL boolits then fire away. I like TL boolits and size most of them.

On the surface, that is sound logic; would be easy to agree, but...... Think about it. If the CFCD is actually performing a post size on your ammo, wouldn't it be better to determine why the ammo is out of spec in the first place? The CFCDs I have used did not do anything any way unless that rare misshapen damaged case got into the case feeder without my notice. So, they warned me of that. Some loaders on the board have reported that their examples of the CFCD were the same size as their decapping size die! Now, if that is true, that is not going to work to anyone's advantage with lead boolits, right. I have stopped using mine for hand loading and they are relegated for use only in case prep such as "bulge busting" and my pistols seem not to Glock the brass anyway.

prs

[mdi]

"I have a problem with folks telling new reloaders that the Lee FCD is the "only way to go with reloading semi-auto ammo"."

Have never seen anyone say the handgun FCD is the "only" way to go. I have a problem with folks telling new reloaders that there is no place for the handgun FCD. Love "logic" like: "What did folks do before Lee introduced their FCD?" I wonder what did folks do before the introduction of electricity? What did folks do before the introduction of the automobile? It is irrelevant. There is good reason that the Lee Precision handgun FCDs are the highest rated dies on MidwayUSA. The FCD should not be used as a replacement for sizing or if it swages down over SAAMI spec boolits. The FCD promotes uniformity and reliability and that is a good thing. It has a place but should be used with common sense. If you get good results with unsized TL boolits then fire away. I like TL boolits and size most of them.

Well, I guess we frequent different forums. I have seen many, many times a question about "my 45 ACP won't chamber" from a new reloader and many, many times the answer is "get a Lee FCD and your problems will go away". "Top Rated"? I'd be suspicious of some ratings from a vendor's site, but who would recommend an FCD? One who has trouble producing consistent, shoot-able ammo! If a reloader can use standard dies, adjusted correctly, and proper sized components, why would they use an FCD and then recommend one? I tried one out of curiosity and found my reloading methods did not necessitate one.

Kind of silly to compare a band-aid fix for a technological advancement (BTW. back when, I remember folks being told to remove the decapping stem from the sizing die and run the cartridge through it again for "chambering problems/case bulges").

I have shot prolly thousands of Lee's .44 240 SWC T/L bullets unsized, but the topic here was using a Lee FCD on 45 ACP unsized T/L bullets, to .002" over sized (I shoot .452" in my 1911), and getting swaged bullets. My contention is use smaller bullets and ferget the FCD and the "problems" will prolly disappear...

[woodknack]

I'll stick to what works for me. I can see this Is a touchy subject!

Lee Factory Crimp Die crimps your bullets in place the same as factory ammo. A collet gently, but firmly squeezes the very end of the case into the crimping groove, exactly the same as factory ammo.

Gives a segmented straight crimp, and crimps more firmly than any other tool

It is impossible to buckle the case as with regular roll crimp dies

Necessary for hunting and combat. Ammunition will be more accurate and better able to withstand rough handling because the bullet is firmly crimped in place.

Tests demonstrate that even bullets with no cannelure will shoot more accurately if crimped in place with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. A firm crimp improves accuracy because pressure must build to a higher level before the bullet begins to move. This higher start pressure insures a more uniform pressure curve and less velocity variation. Even powder selection is less critical. Until now, handloaders seated the bullet to touch the rifling to achieve similar results. This is not always possible nor desirable.

[Hogdaddy]

I have the 4 die set from lee 9mm TL,, I don't use the FCD I adjust the seating die to take the flair out. They shoot fine, Plus I don't size the TL boolit and shoot as cast.. Works in all my 9's (3) with no leading, To each his own ; )
H/D

[williamwaco]

Do you use lee factory crimp die?

No.

I don't like the entire idea of the FCD.

[Virginia John]

I love the tumble lubes, however, the Lee 230 does need to be resized to work in my .45s. Maybe I'm just lazy but the tumble lubes save a lot of time.

[srd]

Lee tumble lube molds work rather well depending on what they are being used in...very simple. My 44's in a revolver will shoot them all day long as cast. My 9's..depending on the manufacturer...will not. Example being..Beretta 92 and Taurus ..ok...Browning Hi Power..No..It wants .356 only...3565 will not even work..Tanfo...357 but .3575 will work but not .358. The 357 and 38 revolvers I own all like as cast tumble lubes. If I have to resize ..they all get powder coated first and then resized. Thanks to the members on this board the powder coat process in my opinion is the only way to fly due to simplicity and being cost effective. No I do not own a Lee FCD die and never tried one in 30 years of casting. The Lyman M die has sounded interesting though.

[Airman Basic]

Tangentially, do the Redding profile crimp dies work the same way as the Lee FCDs?

[mdi]

I'll stick to what works for me. I can see this Is a touchy subject!

Lee Factory Crimp Die crimps your bullets in place the same as factory ammo. A collet gently, but firmly squeezes the very end of the case into the crimping groove, exactly the same as factory ammo.

Gives a segmented straight crimp, and crimps more firmly than any other tool

It is impossible to buckle the case as with regular roll crimp dies

Necessary for hunting and combat. Ammunition will be more accurate and better able to withstand rough handling because the bullet is firmly crimped in place.

Tests demonstrate that even bullets with no cannelure will shoot more accurately if crimped in place with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. A firm crimp improves accuracy because pressure must build to a higher level before the bullet begins to move. This higher start pressure insures a more uniform pressure curve and less velocity variation. Even powder selection is less critical. Until now, handloaders seated the bullet to touch the rifling to achieve similar results. This is not always possible nor desirable.

There are two types of Lee Factory crimp dies, FYI. The type you speak of is a collet die that squeezes the crimp in place. The FCD for handgun ammo is a taper (or roll) crimp that has a sizing ring to post seating and crimping size the cartridge. I'd like to see one of the tests showing better accuracy if using an FCD!

[mpmarty]

Someone, sometime is going to sue the pants off of LEE for their ill begotten FCD for pistols. Here is what i envision:
1. Noob buys a FCD for his pistol
2. Noob uses a 45acp (example only) as cast .454 boolit
3. Noob overexpands brass to accept this .454 cast boolit
4. Noob charges case with "book max performance load"
5. Noob seats .454 boolit
6. Noob uses LEE FCD and crimps round.
Since the FCD reduces the finished diameter of the round by sizing both the brass and boolit and inasmuch as brass springs back and lead doesn't we now have a boolit loose in the case. On chambering this round the boolit is forced back into contact with the "max performance" powder charge and a ka=boom happens. Noob loses one eye and three fingers. INSTANT LAWSUIT.

[jmort]

Impressive fact pattern.

[robertbank]

I'm suggesting you learn to reload properly, no offense intended. What did folks do before Lee introduced their FCD? They used the proper sized bullets and had their dies adjusted correctly. If the round chambers without the FCD you're "working" the brass and bullet needlessly. If thr round chambers without post bullet sizing, why are you using it? I have only been reloading semi-auto ammo for mebbe 18 years and use a plain old taper crimp die (not for a "crimp", but just to straighten out the case flare). I use 90% cast lead bullets, and have been trying PC coating lately and I have no need for an FCD (the one I tried now resides in a landfill in Southern Oregon...). All my ammo feeds well in 2, 45 ACPs, and 2, 9mm pistols...

I am definitely not a "Lee Hater" as I have/use a lot of Lee equipemt and tools, and I really don't care what kind of dies anybody uses, but I have a problem with folks telling new reloaders that the Lee FCD is the "only way to go with reloading semi-auto ammo".

This, if we are talking about the regular FCD that resizes the entire case. All my 9MM, 40 cal and 45acp ammo is shot with lead bullets. In each case the case itself appears to bulge where the bullet is seated due to the diameter of the lead bullet which is at least .001 larger than a jacketed bullet. They all shoot just fine and I shoot thousands of 9MM sized .357 every year in competition and practice. I don't need or want the FCD to swage down my lead bullets.

Now the Lee Colette FCD is a horse of a different colour. I use it in most of my rifle reloads using cast bullets and would use one in my handgun loads as well if I had a need for one. Because I just use a taper crimp to remove the belling on my cases when loading lead boolits I cannot justify purchasing the colette version. I rely on friction to hold the boolits in place and it does even with heavy 45 Colt and 44 Mag loads. Your mileage may vary and if you use one and like it carry on.

Take Care

Bob

[Animal]

I use all 4 dies with my .45acp. Except I knocked the sizing ring out of the bottom of my FCD... It is nice to just have a separate die for removing the flare or adding some taper. Oh, and I do size every boolit. It found that consistent, concentric boolits are more forgiving of the seating process. I'm not sure that it makes any difference beyond that.

[Echd]

Someone, sometime is going to sue the pants off of LEE for their ill begotten FCD for pistols. Here is what i envision:
1. Noob buys a FCD for his pistol
2. Noob uses a 45acp (example only) as cast .454 boolit
3. Noob overexpands brass to accept this .454 cast boolit
4. Noob charges case with "book max performance load"
5. Noob seats .454 boolit
6. Noob uses LEE FCD and crimps round.
Since the FCD reduces the finished diameter of the round by sizing both the brass and boolit and inasmuch as brass springs back and lead doesn't we now have a boolit loose in the case. On chambering this round the boolit is forced back into contact with the "max performance" powder charge and a ka=boom happens. Noob loses one eye and three fingers. INSTANT LAWSUIT.

I feel pretty confident that a bullet that loose in the case is not likely to cause too many catastrophic problems.

I've seen revolver boolits plop right out of a cylinder because they were improperly crimped in the first place, but never seen a gun KB because of it.

[Animal]

When I got started reloading, I did a lot of reading on the FCD. I gathered experiences from folks on this forum and made my decision. The understanding that I gained from the FCD is that it is a handy item, but not necessary if you have done all the right things. I've knocked the sizing ring out of the bottom of my FCD dies just to allow for a 4th crimp die. I have no regrets. I don't feel the need for an FCD. I use a single stage press and supervise each round. This has worked for me very well. I got over the "make lots of ammo really quickly" mindset rather quickly in the game. I then adopted the "make each round count" mentality. Perhaps the FCD works well with the latter, but I haven't missed using it.

By the way, I really have enjoyed this thread. I'm pretty sure I'll be getting a Lee TL mold for my .44spl. I've been on the fence about it until now. Oh, and to the OP, congrats on your newly found joy in reloading. Always remember that if you get your tail chewed out by a seasoned fella on this site, there is probably a point being made that should be respected... even if the guy seems a tad bit over the top.

[robertbank]

I feel pretty confident that a bullet that loose in the case is not likely to cause too many catastrophic problems.

I've seen revolver boolits plop right out of a cylinder because they were improperly crimped in the first place, but never seen a gun KB because of it.

In pistols the bullet can be set back through the feeding cycle and you could have the case let go. With revolvers cylinder lock up would be the issue I would be concerned about.

Bob

[Larry Gibson]

To the topic of the thread; I like TL bullets and I use several in .32, 38, 41 and 44. I always size them either after TLing or in a 450 when lubing. They shoot very well within their limitations.

I also have 2 Lee pistol FCD (the rifle FCD are a complete other story); 9mm and 45 ACP. So far I've found no need to use the 9mm with .356 - .358 bullets in several 9mms pistols. However, in the 45 ACP most all of my cast bullets are sized and lubed at .452. I went along fat dumb and happy for 40+ years shooting those in a multitude of semi-auto handguns, revolvers, subguns and a couple rifles. No problems what so ever. Then I got a P-14 with a match chamber. All of a sudden 2 -4 failures for the slide to close in every mag. Was on a trip up north with 2000 rounds that would not function reliably. Got a Lee FCD at Cabella's and ran all those 2000 rounds through it using a Lee hand press which I had with me. I then had 100% reliable chambering with that ammo. Thought it was a phenomenon with that one P-14 until others related the same with tight match chambers. Then my grandson shows up with his new Kahr. Same problem with .452 bullets; a couple failures to chamber. Same ammo is 100% reliable in both my M1911s, 2 revolvers and rifle. Run the loaded ammo through the CD and it was 100% in the Kahr also.

Yes the FCD sizes the bullet down but when that's what's needed what's the problem/complaint? It works for me. However, I am now sizing all my cast 45 ACP bullets at .451 for the ACP cartridge and accuracy is the same, no leading and my Dillon SDB loaded ammo feeds reliably in all my guns now.

If the LFCD works for you great. If you don't need it great. One should not negate the other.

Larry Gibson

[prs]

I'll stick to what works for me. I can see this Is a touchy subject!

Lee Factory Crimp Die crimps your bullets in place the same as factory ammo. A collet gently, but firmly squeezes the very end of the case into the crimping groove, exactly the same as factory ammo.

Gives a segmented straight crimp, and crimps more firmly than any other tool

It is impossible to buckle the case as with regular roll crimp dies

Necessary for hunting and combat. Ammunition will be more accurate and better able to withstand rough handling because the bullet is firmly crimped in place.

Tests demonstrate that even bullets with no cannelure will shoot more accurately if crimped in place with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. A firm crimp improves accuracy because pressure must build to a higher level before the bullet begins to move. This higher start pressure insures a more uniform pressure curve and less velocity variation. Even powder selection is less critical. Until now, handloaders seated the bullet to touch the rifling to achieve similar results. This is not always possible nor desirable.

Woodnack, that description is of a totally different type of die than what you seem to be talking about. I notice Larry picks-up on that later. The Carbide Factory Crimp Die for pistol rounds is either a roll or taper crimp depending upon cartridge spec and a sizing ring.

To the topic of the thread; I like TL bullets and I use several in .32, 38, 41 and 44. I always size them either after TLing or in a 450 when lubing. They shoot very well within their limitations.

I also have 2 Lee pistol FCD (the rifle FCD are a complete other story); 9mm and 45 ACP. So far I've found no need to use the 9mm with .356 - .358 bullets in several 9mms pistols. However, in the 45 ACP most all of my cast bullets are sized and lubed at .452. I went along fat dumb and happy for 40+ years shooting those in a multitude of semi-auto handguns, revolvers, subguns and a couple rifles. No problems what so ever. Then I got a P-14 with a match chamber. All of a sudden 2 -4 failures for the slide to close in every mag. Was on a trip up north with 2000 rounds that would not function reliably. Got a Lee FCD at Cabella's and ran all those 2000 rounds through it using a Lee hand press which I had with me. I then had 100% reliable chambering with that ammo. Thought it was a phenomenon with that one P-14 until others related the same with tight match chambers. Then my grandson shows up with his new Kahr. Same problem with .452 bullets; a couple failures to chamber. Same ammo is 100% reliable in both my M1911s, 2 revolvers and rifle. Run the loaded ammo through the CD and it was 100% in the Kahr also.

Yes the FCD sizes the bullet down but when that's what's needed what's the problem/complaint? It works for me. However, I am now sizing all my cast 45 ACP bullets at .451 for the ACP cartridge and accuracy is the same, no leading and my Dillon SDB loaded ammo feeds reliably in all my guns now.

If the LFCD works for you great. If you don't need it great. One should not negate the other.

Larry Gibson

Larry, your story is a prime example of what the CFCD is for, fixing screw-ups. But don't Ya think it would be better to size BEFORE loading if you have the chance to? I guess if you ran a comparison and found no function difference in the reliability, or no velocity change, or accuracy change; then I would have to totally agree. But, it makes so much common sense to load to the need to begin with and to resort to the CFCD if you happened to slip-up.

prs