IMR 4064 .308 Win loads

[RickinTN]

There is a "standard" taper for the 308 chamber and throat I'm sure. Of course who know if you or I have a "standard" throat. The taper of a 30-06 throat is .038" per .001", or thereabouts. I think the 308 is different but how I don't know. If someone would come along and offer information on how to get an accurate measurement of the rifling imprint and taper, or at least what the standard taper should be I think we would be well ahead of where we are. It's been 35 years since I've used any trigonometry and I understand x-thousandths of and inch taper per x-thousandths of an inch better. I'm sure someone here could tell us what it is supposed to be, or maybe Tom could shed some light for us. I was going to say I have no problem in springing for a mold but a mold for one of my rifles won't work in your rifle because of the difference in freebore. I have been studying on a bullet for one of my 30-06's which has .230" freebore and with a bullet of about 180 grains the taper will end at .305" then the nose-proper, which I will hold to .225". The bullet I'm speaking of will give perfect (if there is such a thing) static and dynamic fit in my rifle and have a minimum of .0025 engraving all the way to the taper of the nose. In essence almost the whole bullet will be driving band to some degree.
Rick

[Larry Gibson]

DeanWinchester

So, with a sporter weight factory rifle in 30-06 with a 10" twist you are getting basically 2 moa accuracy with 4190 powder using a cast bullet with a long bore riding nose with less than 50% bearing surface on the drive bands. You are casting of COWW alloy and are sorting for visual defects and weight sorting(?). You are using arelatively fast burning power.

Considering the above I’d say you are doing pretty darn good regardless of the velocity.

If you want to shoot that bullet faster with the same accuracy then you need to make some changes. Is that what you want to do?

If you want to shoot to a higher velocity with perhaps better accuracy additional changes will be required. Is that what you want to do?

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

Well shucks! I wish we'd hashed this out 'fore I bought this last mold Rick.

[popper]

I use the 31-165B & C, @ 3105, 3% Sb, oven treated. 2% wasn't enough. I also add a tad of Cu. Using 4895 but 335 seems more accurate. I can send you some.

[Larry Gibson]

Rickin TN

Recent work that sort of disappeared on the new 30XCB cartridge and a new bullet for it, the 31-190X Accurate is a good example of what proper "fit" is in that throat and a standard 30-06 throat and leade. I have one rifle that the 31-190X should be an excellent fit in which has a .050" freebore section, but with the .230" to .250" freebore or parallel section of my other rifles I would have very little bullet in the case.

The 30x57 (30 XCB) was born with several criteria in mind for shooting naked cast bullets at high velocity. Unfortunately 2 very important criteria are being ignored by the current users. The 1st intent (I know because I designed the 30x57 specifically for this purpose) being ignored is the use of a slow twist in a long barrel; 14 or 16" twist in 26 to preferably 30" long barrels. None of the currently barreled 30 XCBs have a barrel of those specifications. The second ignored intent is the use of a proper bullet design that gives a bearing surface on the cast bullet from the base of the '06 case neck to the leade and then have a very short nose with little to no bore riding. The two bullets fit that fit that specification (the 311466 and the LBT 30-160-SP) are not being used.

What is being used is a bullet that is designed with a long bore riding nose and a short bearing surface of drive bands to keep the lube inside the shorter "modern" .308W length necks. The taper in front of the drive bands is designed (and variations of that design) around the usual throat length and leade of the .308W chamber.

Thus they are not using the right barrel specifications and are using the wrong bullet design. And they wonder why the cartridge design is not living up to expectations...........

In DeanWinchester's case he apparently wants to shoot groups with all the bullets touching at high velocity in his commercial sporter '06 using a bullet designed for something else. I know many here are led to believe they can shoot sub moa accuracy with any cast bullet out of any rifle if they only learn the secrets known only to a few...........he is finding it perhaps just isn't so. What he really fails to realize is that with his bullets in his rifle he is shooting as well as probably 95+% of the cast bullet shooters. To get in that other 5% he is going to have to make some changes, the choice is his.

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

DeanWinchester

So, with a sporter weight factory rifle in 30-06 with a 10" twist you aregetting basically 2 moa accuracy with 4190 powder using a cast bullet with along bore riding nose with less than 50% bearing surface on the drivebands. You are casting of COWW alloy andare sorting for visual defects and weight sorting(?). You are using arelatively fast burning power.

Considering theabove I’d say you are doing pretty darn good regardless of the velocity.

If you want toshoot that bullet faster with the same accuracy then you need to make somechanges. Is that what you want to do?

If you want toshoot to a higher velocity with perhaps better accuracy additional changes willbe required. Is that what you want todo?

Larry Gibson

ummm yeah boss, but I don't own a 30/06.

The rifle is a Japanese Weatherby (Howa 1500) in .308 Winchester and the barrel measures right at .750 at the muzzle and 22 inches long.
My goal was simple and certainly NOT worthy of as many pages and wasted bandwidth as has been spent on it already.
Consistently group at or under an inch at 50 yards. Around 1.5-2.0 inches at a hundred yards. After that I don't care if it hits a bull in the butt on the backside of Brazil cause I don't shoot past a hundred. Don't really care to even try.
It also needs to have enough velocity at a hundred yards to penetrate and cleanly kill (provided I do my part) a white tail deer.
If it'll do that, I'd be proud of it.
My range visits are spent at the same bench every time, shooting 50 yards. It's what I enjoy.

Havent not been able to accomplish it in four or five years of playing around with it. Started with an Enfeild 2A, then two different Savages, then a Ruger, now this.
The cliche I get handed when I complain about it is step back and take a breathe. Gotdang, I've been doin it for while now and it ain't working like I want. I can make progress then I end up getting excited about it, bragging about it to you guys here and then what happens? Ppffffftttt.....fart in the wind.
I was pretty PO'd the last few days but I'm laughing now.
Ill give it the rest of the summer and keep working at it. If it still won't cooperate, I'll sell it.
Ive been on my head for a 358 Winchester for a while now but I may say to heck with it and get Into 45/70. I might like me some guide gun whumpummm.

[RickinTN]

Well shucks! I wish we'd hashed this out 'fore I bought this last mold Rick.

I guess that's part of the learning curve. I have learned that mold ordering is kinda like carpentry in that I've decided to measure at least a dozen times and order once!
Larry is right above, in that what you have and what you are getting ain't too shabby. I do know that the 10" twist, which my '06's are, and maybe your rifle is, is a whole 'nuther issue and opens yet another can of worms. If I had my choices I would rather have an '06 with it's longer case neck in a 12" twist, with a bullet that properly fits. It's not to be unless I go the full custom route, which I haven't elected to do just yet. Thinking out loud...A standard reamer would have a somewhat "standard" freebore of about .050", which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I can't help but think your freebore of about .160" and mine of .230" and a little more in some cases is an advantage in that it allows us to use a bullet with a longer full-diameter driving band, but I think we need the proper-fitting tapered nose to fully utilize this advantage. In designing a mold for one of my 30-06's I have some latitude in that I can design it with about .330" bullet in the case neck and have some wiggle room for adjustment through exact sizing if the mold runs a little larger than spec, which I hope it would. In the 308 cartridge I would want the neck full of bullet without going below the case/neck junction. This doesn't leave any room for the tapered portion of the mold to cast larger, or smaller than specified. This makes me a little shy to try and design a tapered nose bullet for one of my 308's, at least on the first "go" of a tapered nose design.
Rick

[DeanWinchester]

As far making it work. I HAVE done it. Just not with a .308. I had a Savage I rebarreled to a .300 blackout that would shoot cast into .5" groups or less at 50 yards. It was VERY accurate. Never knew the velocity but I ran the Lee 312-155-2R harder than any fool should in the blackout case. Compressing Lil'Gun to the point of seeing case flow and it was right there. Every time.

As as good as it shot, I hate that cartridge. I have no justifiable reason to, it's one of those unexplainable things. Other than making brass from 223 it's a breeze to load. I just don't like it.
I DO like .308, once again, why it can't say.

[RickinTN]

What is being used is a bullet that is designed with a long bore riding nose and a short bearing surface of drive bands to keep the lube inside the shorter "modern" .308W length necks. The taper in front of the drive bands is designed (and variations of that design) around the usual throat length and leade of the .308W chamber.

Larry,
I agree with the slower twist as it will give a lower rotational velocity and be more gentle on the bullet, especially at the start of it's trip down the bore. This would go hand in hand with your RPM threshold theory. I also agree with the longer barrel as it would allow the use of slower powders to give the bullet a gentler push most of the way down the barrel as opposed to a swift kick in the butt to start it on it's way with a faster powder which usually needs to be used to get the velocities we want in the shorter barrels we have. I do understand the ideal situation is to have the bullet exit the muzzle in as close to the same condition as it started it's journey with the exception of the rifling engraving. As we have discussed Dean and I have factory rifles, and to change that we would have to go the custom barrel/chamber route. I hunt a little in the thick woods of Tennessee, and I assume Dean does as well, as we are pretty close neighbors. There are places where you can barely see your hand in front of your face it's so thick. I do hunt with a couple of 24" barreled rifles, but any longer just wouldn't work for me unless I am in one of my shooting houses, and I have 26" barreled jacketed bullet rifles for that.
Where I would have to disagree with you is on the design of the 31-190X bullet being a "bore-ride" design. It is not, at least to my understanding of the term. In static condition with proper sizing it is in contact with the neck of the case and the "freebore" portion of the throat, and then in contact with the top of the lands through their taper of the leade from their origin until the nose of the bullet tapers off. Immediately on ignition dynamic fit will come into play and it will engrave the lands. The only better scenario I can think of would be to have a bullet with the lands cast into it and index every bullet, but I know that would be a rediculous scenario and impossible to accomplish. In the case of the bullet which I may have Tom make for me I only want a bullet of about 180 grains. I have .230" of freebore and can place about .330" in the case neck (30-06). This gives me .660" of full diameter shank portion of the bullet. Because of the length being limited by the weight I can only use the taper of the 31-190X bullet down to a diameter of .305", and then add a radiused nose of about .225" in length. The .225" is the only portion of the bullet which will not be engraved upon firing. I guess another option would be to continue the taper to the .300" mark and truncate the nose there leaving a .300" meplat bullet, but not really what I want.
My point being that I don't see the 31-190X as being a bore-ride design any more than the Ranchdog 30 cal 165 grain bullet is unless I've missed something.
Rick

[Petrol & Powder]

I can't add anything to the cast bullet discussion for a .308 Win. but I will second two prior posts:
1. IMR4895 is the powder for .308. I understand the current powder situation and I'm doing the same powder substitutions when it comes to handgun powders. Fortunately , I have enough rifle powder.
2. The .308 Winchester is an inherently accurate cartridge and extremely versatile. I think it is a better cartridge than the often hyped .30-06 until the ranges get way out there and it works in a short action.

I've shot a lot of .308 and I could never find a good reason to stray from 4895 powder and bullets in the 165-168gr range. Every gun is different but that powder/bullet combination seems to work in any decent rifle and sometimes it works really well. The caveat is jacketed bullets, sorry.

[Clay M]

Varget seems to be the #1 powder for the .308 in match applications with jacketed bullets.I have better luck with REL 15 but have been told the reason people like Varget better is because it is less temperature sensitive.One of my .308's likes Norma 202 best.

[DeanWinchester]

Varget seems to be the #1 powder for the .308 in match applications with jacketed bullets.I have better luck with REL 15 but have been told the reason people like Varget better is because it is less temperature sensitive.One of my .308's likes Norma 202 best.

Getting good results with a jacketed bullet is a cake walk. Been there done that. Didn't win the tshirt but got an honorable mention.
The first savage I had was a model 10 precision carbine. It would put 168g Amax bullets on top of one another until you ran out of money to feed it. Accurate 2520 was it's favorite. Cast? Uuh, no.

[Clay M]

I have a Savage Model 12BVSS .308 with a target action on the way. It will be my cast bullet rifle. My main interest in .308 with jacketed bullets is 1000 yd matches at a local club.

[DeanWinchester]

Okay, well I might be fixin' to poke at a hornets nest I wish I'd never opened BUT, if I don't get the results I'm after I've got another thing I'm gonna try.

The post office just delivered my latest order from Amazon. A book.
Paul Matthews: The Paper Jacket.

Ive got a metric poop ton of soft lead and I'm right certain it'd be just fine for patching at the low end of paper patch velocity. I've also got a line on several pounds of 4350. Nice, slow, bulky, case full.

[Larry Gibson]

RickinTN

then in contact with the top of the lands through their taper of the leade from their origin until the nose of the bullet tapers off

That makes it a "bore rider" by definition as a major portion of the bullet is "riding the bore" i.e the "top of the lands. It still has only about 30 - 35% bearing surface of the drive bands, a little more % of the nose is "bore riding" and the rest is totally unsupported nose. I use basically the same design with the MP 30-180. It does not hold up near as well at higher velocity/acceleration as does the 311466 or the LBT 30-160-SP. Both of which have 68 - 70% bearing surface, little if any bore riding nose and the rest is a short stubby nose.

You may think with the 31-190X "dynamic fit" will come into play on ignition but with COWW alloy it does not, especially when push hard. A harder alloy will help but that bullet has only about 1/3 of its length supporting the rest which can move .004 in any direction due to groove depth. In my 12" twist M70 w/26" barrel .308W I should be able to safely push the 30-180 to 2600 fps. However, using badgeredd's Cu enriched alloy formula, accuracy goes at around 2400+ fps because the psi is over 42,000 and that bullet gets offset to one side. I recovered one bullet from the 300 yard berm and it showed rifling marks engraved on one side up near the ogive (the nose was shattered off) indicating it had bent of tilted in the bore during acceleration. "Riding the bore" does not prevent that when a cast bullet is pushed hard.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

DeanWinchester

ummm yeah boss, but I don't own a 30/06.


My bad, I was still thinking 30-06 from the previous post. I know your Howa is a .308W.

When you seat the 31-165a is the GC still in the case neck?

Are you going to at least add 2% tin to the COWWs?

Are you going to try the 4064?

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

DeanWinchester

ummm yeah boss, but I don't own a 30/06.


My bad, I was still thinking 30-06 from the previous post. I know your Howa is a .308W.

When you seat the 31-165a is the GC still in the case neck?

Are you going to at least add 2% tin to the COWWs?

Are you going to try the 4064?

Larry Gibson

I have made it a point to never seat a boolit below the neck. Right now the neck contains the entire thing, what ain't outside the case.

Tin? I have none. I wouldn't mind ordering some but I was planning on ordering from Rotometals anyway. If I'm ordering from them, would I not be even better off to order the best alloy they offer for this application? I'm not made out of money but right now, I'll spend a few bucks to really do it right. Do you have a suggestion for which alloy to buy from them? I'm going to get a few things from them, not the least of which is a thermometer. Yeah, shame on me. I ain't got one.

I bought the 4064 specifically for this so, yessir I'm gonna try it. I have plenty of poly batting too for filler if need be.

[RickinTN]

Larry,
Although you don't know it I've learned a lot from your posts in the past and when you type, I listen, as I know you have much more cast bullet experience than I do, and probably ever will have.
I still have to disagree that the bullet shown above is a bore-ride design. From the .750" mark forward on the bullet it will not engrave, agreed. From the .750" mark and back it will all engrave to some degree upon firing. I agree it will only be full engraving on the "shank" proper, but will have some engraving on 75% of the bullet. This engraving becomes greater as you get further back on the bullet. The only point that "rides the bore" is the point at .750" where the bullet is .300" diameter, assuming a .300" bore, and a point has no dimension, it is a point. I don't have a sample of an LBT long flat nose bullet, nor do I have a drawing of one, but I think this is the same pretense under which it is designed. I think I know that the LBT design doesn't carry the taper all the way out to bore diameter and therefore will have deeper engraving on the portion of the bullet that is there. In the bullet design I'm contemplating for one of my 30-06 rifles because I have a .230" freebore and only want a bullet of about 180 grains I would only carry the taper to a diameter of .305" therefore having a minimum engraving of .0025" per side and increasing from there as it gets further back on the bullet. I do think this is closer to the LBT designed bullets, but I have no way to confirm.
This probably opens a 'nuther can of worms here, but I'll ask as I have the opportunity. I had the chance to study somewhat the Lyman 311466 which you mention as a better alternative. I think I found the front driving band to be of .305" diameter and therefore would engrave .0025" per side in a standard .300" bore. The weakness of the Louverin designed bullet as I see it is the many grooves are not supported by the bore and thus lending itself to what I call the "accordian" effect, or the bullet being able to compress under pressure. Maybe I'm all wet here but it seems to be the case to me.
I'm truly trying to learn here, and maybe I'm "hung up" on nomenclature, but I still don't see the above bullet as a "bore-ride" design.
Take care,
Rick

[tomme boy]

Larry, please post up a picture of the LBT design would you? I see you mention this in a few other post and I would like to see it. Thanks, Tom

[Larry Gibson]

RickinTN

Feel free to redefine the term "bore rider" any way you want. Many do that here and it leads to a lot of confusion and disagreements. The point is your own definition of that bullet ("it is in contact with the neck of the case and the "freebore" portion of the throat, and then in contact with the top of the lands through their taper of the leade from their origin until the nose of the bullet tapers off") defines that bullet as a "bore rider" under the common definition. That bullet has approximately 3/3s of its length extending into the bore that is not groove diameter. The fact that part of the nose "engraves" on the lands does not change what the design of the bullet is. Your concept is tantamount to using the 314299 in the same .308W and saying it is not a bore rider because the nose is engrave by the lands. The bullet is what it is; a bore rider. Changing the definition will not make it perform better at higher velocity. Yes it will perform well to a degree but other designs (the 311466 being one of them) will perform better at a higher velocity.

If you note in some of my posts I refer to that basic design (your 31-190X, the MP 30-180, the NOE 30-185 and several other examples in various calibers) are what I refer to as "modern bore riders" because they are better at high velocity that the older "classic" bore riders such as the 311291, 311299, 314299 and many other such "older" bore riding designs. However, the 31-190X is still a bore rider though a "modern" one.

"The weakness of the Louverin designed bullet as I see it is the many grooves are not supported by the bore and thus lending itself to what I call the "accordian" effect, or the bullet being able to compress under pressure. Maybe I'm all wet here but it seems to be the case to me."

You are "all wet" as your conclusion might "hold water" if there was no lube in all those lube grooves. The lube is a solidified liquid and compresses very little if any (refer you to the physical attributes of hydraulics). Thus there is no "accordion effect". Additional do to the solidness of the lube (the faster something hits a liquid the more "solid" the liquid is) it may also may provide structural support to the Loverin design by giving a film of supporting lube along a much greater bearing surface. The point is the 311466 maintains accuracy to a higher velocity in my 10", 12" and 14" twist .308W rifles and also does so in three 30-06 rifles with 10" twist that does the MP 30-180 or even the LBT 30-160-SP. We can argue "nomenclature" and hypothesize about "accordion effect" all we want but it's hard to argue with the fact of success.

Larry Gibson