IMR 4064 .308 Win loads

[DeanWinchester]

4895 I or H it will serve you well.

So I've been told. Sad there's no such thing in these parts.

[Larry Gibson]

Dean Winchester

And the .308Wrifle is?

And the 30-30 rifle Is?

The Accurate30-165A is your basic FN 30-30 bullet with a long bore riding nose. It is not conducive to HV shooting,particularly if your .308W has a 10” twist barrel. With a 12” barrel you should be able to push2100 maybe 2200 fps with bullet of a better alloy.

I suggest youadd 2% tin to your COWs and WQ or HT the bullets. Of the powders you mention only 4064 will bebest for higher velocity in your .308W. If you really want to push to higher velocity (2300 – 2400+ fps) Then Isuggest finding a slower burning powder (4350, RL19, H4831SC or RL22) andgetting a different mould with a better design. Consider a 311466 or the LBT 30-160-SP.

If you want to stick with 4064 then consider the NOE30-180 or the MP 30-185. Standarddesigns such as the 311299, the RCBS 308-165-SIL or 308-200-SIL The SAECO #31or the LeeC309-200-R would all be good in the 12” twist to 2200+ f/- fps.

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

The .308 rifle is a nearly new Weatherby (Howa1500) and the 30/30 is a beat up piece of junk Ted Williams Sears - Winchester '94.

A better design? It fits my lead and throat perfect. I don't shoot past 100 yards, ever. I don't see how any of the others could be better. I tried the 311299 in a Savage and it was horrible. Too long for the magazine and keyholes in the paper.
The LBT you list is a LOT like the 155 Lee I have. It sucked. The size was good, nose too, but it shot around 4 inches or a touch less at 50 yards.
I've played with several cast spitzers in the last few years and never been happy with any of them. I heap rather have a meplat.

[Larry Gibson]

Ok, you've a 10" twist in the Howa and the M94 has a 12" twist. There in lays the difference. I you want higher velocity in the Howa then you will need to make some changes; alloy, lube(?), GCs(?), etc. and/or possibly a different mould with a better design. Is that what you want? Otherwise with COWW alloy and that bullet design 1800 - 2000 fps with accuracy is going to be about it for the Weatherby/Howa.

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

Not want I wanted to hear.

I was was fixing to order some Lyman #2 from Rotometals to see if a QUALITY Alloy would work better. Maybe I'll just forget it.

[Larry Gibson]

A quality alloy will indeed work better. That is one of the things to do when pushing to higher velocity. I suggest you simply add 2% tin (also available at Roto-Metals) to your COWWs, cast the bullets with the alloy at 725 +/- degrees and adjust your casting tempo for quality instead of quantity. WQ the bullets out of the mould you have and let the bullets sit for 48 hours. Then do a close visual inspection and reject all with any visual defect, no matter how small. Use a quality GC like the Hornady and make sure the GC is seated before crimping. Size and lube as you have been. Use the 4064. Start at 24 gr and use a 1/2 - 3/4 gr Dacron filler. Work up in 1/2 gr increments testing at 100 yards and keeping the barrel cool, probably not more than 1 shot every 2 minutes at the most. Use 10 shot test groups. Use a chronograph if you have one looking for smaller ES and SDs. Accuracy will begin to deteriorate when the velocity exceeds the capability of the 10" twist with that bullet/alloy/powder combination.

The use of #2 alloy will only improve things a very little over the COWWs +2% tin and WQ'd.....maybe.

Accuracy with your 165 FP bullet will be what it will be in the Howa. If you really want to increase velocity with accuracy (useable) the a new mould of a much better designed bullet is suggested. I suggest taking a hard look at the LBT 30-160-SP.

Larry Gibson

[MBTcustom]

Dean, another possible option would be to make an enhanced alloy.
Add copper rich babbit metal to the mix.
I know next to nothing about this, but 357Maximum and Dutch4122 and badgeredd have a lot of experience with these methods. You might shoot them a PM.
Larry, you got to play with some of that alloy didn't you?

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, I have and still play with Cu enriched alloy (courtesy badgered). The problem is the bullet design, too much unsupported nose out there. If WQ'd or HT'd COWWs + 2% tin or #2 alloy (24 - 30 BHN possible) won't get him where he wants to go the a Cu in the alloy probably won't either. Problem is he has a bullet designed for his M94 30-30 and it does quite well there but he wants it to perform at higher velocity in a faster twist rifle. He wants a bullet that was designed for normal performance at 30-30 velocities to perform like a special purpose bullet at high velocity. A common enough thought by many but one we find hard to put into practice.

If the OP does things right to go that distance (he hasn't answered that he is willing to go that distance or state specifically what that "distance" is with his '06) he can maybe squeak 2100 - 2200 fps out of it, maybe. Would be better for him in the long run to just get a specially designed bullet for higher velocities.

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

Larry, I don't understand the unsupported nose thing. It's a bore rider. When I chamber and extract a loaded round, I have rifling marks on the nose, all but the very tip top of it. The rifling is touching the shank of the nose and the leade engraves on the angle lead in of the first driving band.

[Bohica793]

I have heard from a friend of mine who shoots his .308 in competition that his best results are when he seats his rounds off the lands by about .010-.020 instead of engraving them. His belief is that the .308 likes to jump. It's a simple change for you to try.

[MBTcustom]

I have heard from a friend of mine who shoots his .308 in competition that his best results are when he seats his rounds off the lands by about .010-.020 instead of engraving them. His belief is that the .308 likes to jump. It's a simple change for you to try.

Surely hes not shooting cast lead is he? That's common wisdom for jacketed.

Dean, a well supported cast boolit will have 70% of it's length supported by the groove diameter, unless I am mistaken.

[725]

Don't give up. The .308 is inherently an accurate cartridge. Much underrated but, in fact, good for almost anything that walks.

[DeanWinchester]

Don't give up. The .308 is inherently an accurate cartridge. Much underrated but, in fact, good for almost anything that walks.

Not with this guy casting for it. Four or five years and four or five rifles later, I quit.
I bought some Hornady TAP ammo last night. If my current 308 groups well with it, it can stay. If not. It's history and all the loaded ammo I have ferreted away for it is going to a local friend who has a linking machine and a 1919 with a 308 conversion.

[tomme boy]

Guys, that design he is using is made to fit a throat on a Remington 700. I know as I worked with Tom @ Accurate to make it. I have used it to shoot out of my 1-10 twist Savage in 308 win at 2100 fps and it hold 1.5" at 100 yds. Another member using the same mold has it going 2400 fps in an AR10. It works. Just like everything else, you have to work at it.

[DeanWinchester]

Guys, that design he is using is made to fit a throat on a Remington 700. I know as I worked with Tom @ Accurate to make it. I have used it to shoot out of my 1-10 twist Savage in 308 win at 2100 fps and it hold 1.5" at 100 yds. Another member using the same mold has it going 2400 fps in an AR10. It works. Just like everything else, you have to work at it.

See, I knew you guys were running that design at the velocities I wanted. I started asking about that design after making a pound cast of my rifle and going through Toms catalog until I found what fit my throat perfectly. And it does! I've run 2015 loads up as far as starting charges for jacketed boolits and still no leading. It just will not group.
Ive done ladder tests with AA2015, Unique, 3031, 4198 and even a few with Varget. I got nothing consistent. Every once in a while I would get a good group but it would repeat. MOST groups would have three rounds almost touching with two rounds ruining a group. This is why we shoot five round groups. Three round groups tell lies.

[Larry Gibson]

"Just like everything else, you have to work at it."

That is exactly what I've been trying to tell you. Because others do doesn't mean you will if you don't "work at it". Doing the same thing over and over again (as in the same alloy and a fast burning powder) and getting the same poor results is not "working at it". Not criticizing here just pointing out a couple things you need to adjust to succeed.

MOST groups would have three rounds almost touching with two rounds ruining a group.

So what is the 5 shot ctc size of most of your groups?

What velocity (fps) would you like to achieve with what accuracy (moa)?

As I've said 2100 +/- fps with 2 moa or less is probably doable with that bullet. If you expect 2400 fps with 2 moa then you should consider another bullet as also mentioned. Please be a little more specific in what your rifle does and what you want it to do.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I don't understand the unsupported nose thing. It's a bore rider. When I chamber and extract a loaded round, I have rifling marks on the nose, all but the very tip top of it. The rifling is touching the shank of the nose and the leade engraves on the angle lead in of the first driving band.

See the space between the "rifling marks on the nose"? There is probably around .004" of space between those rifling marks into which that bullet can obturate into or bend into causing the bullet to be unbalanced. The higher the velocity the higher the RPM and its greater adverse affect on those imbalances. That adversely affects accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[DeanWinchester]

MOST groups would have three rounds almost touching with two rounds ruining a group.

So what is the 5 shot ctc size of most of your groups?

What velocity (fps) would you like to achieve with what accuracy (moa)?

As I've said 2100 +/- fps with 2 moa or less is probably doable with that bullet. If you expect 2400 fps with 2 moa then you should consider another bullet as also mentioned. Please be a little more specific in what your rifle does and what you want it to do.

Larry Gibson

ctc group for five shots run an average of 1.5-2.0 inches. Let's say 1.75 inches. Every once in a while I will get five shots right at an inch or so but results are not results if you cannot repeat them on demand. Confusing to me is the speed. One would think increasing the speed would negatively impact groups but that's not necessarily so here.
If you will let me post some data. My last two range trips included tests of IMR4198.
Trip one I took fifty rounds loaded (10) rounds each 25.0g, 26.0g, 27.0g, 28.0g and 29.0g
Shoot two five round groups for each load, the groups were:
25.0 - (1) 1.5" (2) .875"
26.0 - (1) 1.125" (2) 1.4"
27.0 - (1) .9" (2) .5"
28.0 - (1) .81" (2) .85"
29.0 - (1) 1.1" (2) 2.6"

Using those results I figured my best groups would be found between 27.0 & 28.0g SO, the next trip I took (50) more rounds loaded (1) rounds each 27.0g, 27.2g, 27.4g, 27.6g & 27.8g
I thought for sure I'd find a sweet spot in there. But.....
27.0g - (1) .84" (2) 1.9"
27.2g - (1) 1.625" (2) 1.5"
27.4g - (1) 1.15" (2) 1.12"
27.6g - (1) 1.4" (2) 1.1
27.8g - (1) 1.2 (2) 2.06

Shots were fired one round every 60 seconds or so for the five rounds then one dry patch and five minutes to cool before the next five rounds. The barrel is about 3/4" at the muzzle and it's warm to the touch but never HOT.
Never once saw a single hint of leading. Bore was sparkling after one patch on an Otis cable. Very little soot on the patch. Only reason I kept doing it was because I started doing and didn't want to do anything different.

[RickinTN]

Dean,
I've been following your thread here and remember commenting on your earlier thread about your bullet selection. You may remember I have the 31-180R from Accurate which is a modified version of your bullet. I'm working with or have worked with my bullet in 6 different 308 and 30-06 Remington rifles (talk about adding to the confusion!). I'm getting accuracy results similar to yours. I'll have three shots in 1/2" or so and two others opening the group to 1 1/2" or so. The three in the 1/2" aren't necessarily consecutive shots, and usually aren't. This is good enough for the deer hunting we'll do in middle Tennessee of course, but not as good as I want, or apparently not as good as you want either. I will say that the true 1" at a hundred yards or 1 minute of angle factory rifle is indeed a rare bird, even with jacketed bullets, probably more so than most realize or will admit. I'm talking about every group, every time. I think we are both at about the same place in the learning curve. Most of my rifles have a "freebore" section in front of the case that measure about .3104" in diameter and vary from .230" to .250" long. Yours, from what I can gather of your measurements in your other post measures about .160". This is the reason I modified the 31-180R from the bullet you have. I'm comfortable we both have good "fit" in our rifles as far as this is concerned. Where we don't have good fit is from this point forward. The leade in our rifles will or should be a straight taper from that .3104" dimension to bore size which I'll call .300 for all practical purposes. Our bullets don't fit this taper. With the drastic reduction in the bullet vs the gradual or tapered reduction in the throat of our rifles there is a void between bullet and throat. Upon ignition the bullet is kicked in the butt and tries to go anywhere it can. We hope it holds it's shape and goes down the bore, but usually as pressures increase this is not the case. It goes anywhere it can. Although it is an exaggeration think trying to push silly putty down the bore, it fills any void it can, and this isn't always the void of the bore in front of it. Once the bullet moves down the bore several thousandths it is indeed supported by the bore of the rifle, but by this time it is deformed and not the shape we started with. Searches and studies of "static fit" and "dynamic fit" on this forum will probably explain what's happening better than I can. Recent work that sort of disappeared on the new 30XCB cartridge and a new bullet for it, the 31-190X Accurate is a good example of what proper "fit" is in that throat and a standard 30-06 throat and leade. I have one rifle that the 31-190X should be an excellent fit in which has a .050" freebore section, but with the .230" to .250" freebore or parallel section of my other rifles I would have very little bullet in the case.
Hope this helps and doesn't muddy the water any more than it already is.
Take care,
Rick

PS Measuring the leade taper of my pound cast is beyond mine and my equipments' capabilities, or at least I don't know how to do that just yet.

[DeanWinchester]

I can see what you're saying here. I can't figure a good way to measure that either but you're right, that's one area where the fit is not perfect.








Okay, IF you can measure the depth the rifling engraved on the above photo AND accurately measure the distance from where the rifling starts to where the rifling makes full depth then you would essentially have two known sides of a triangle.

If the depth of the rifling = b
And the length of the angle =c
Then the tangent of angle B would equal b/c
Angle B = actual angle of the leade

Now, how the heck are you going to accurately measure those two dimensions. Jeweler loupe and a VERY sharp pair of calipers? LOL!!