I,m so confused??

[Fly]

I must ask you guy's and show how dumb I can be some times.Now I own a Gibbs
with a 1-18 twist.We all know how accerate these rifles are.I have also assumed
that to shoot conicals at long range required fast twist.

How can the Pedersoli's new 3 band Enfield rifle with a 1-78 twist shoot tight groups
at long range as they do?
Fly

[johnson1942]

fly, i also hope someone replys as i would like to know also. may have something to do with the shape of the mini ball. maybe length doesnt count in it.

[idahoron]

I can't tell you. My .451 has a 1-30 twist and the bullet I use shouldn't work but it does. Sometimes sh!t happens. Ron

[fouronesix]

18" twist vs 78" twist stability???
While they are related, there is a difference between accuracy and stability.

Seems this has been covered a "few" times so will try it again. It has to do with physics (gag, choke, cough, etc.).

A simple solid base conical is inherently unstable in flight without a lot of spin. It is primarily gyroscopically stabilized in flight.

A radically hollowed base conical, like a true Minié or shotgun slug, is inherently stable in flight and requires very little if any spin. It is primarily aerodynamically stabilized.

To fly point forward in stable flight, any "long" object that is not spinning or has very little spin must be stabilized aerodynamically. That means the center of gravity (mass) of the object must be in front of the center of aerodynamic pressure. Shuttlecocks, darts or properly designed Miniés would be examples.

Conversely, if the center of gravity (mass) is behind the center of pressure, a long object like a pencil or a solid base conical will be inherently unstable in flight without enough gyroscopic (spin) stabilization.

[johnson1942]

idahoron, what is the weight of the bullet in your .45? ive been shooting my .45 1/30 twist some every day and it is a tackdriver. i uses a 335 grain bullet but if your useing heavier i may try swageing up the weight you have. love that bore diam and twist. i had my neighbor weld up a gong and i cant get enough of smaking it. looking forward to you reply.

[Lead Fred]

1/28-1/48 are standard conical twists.
1/48 being half donkey between conical and round ball
1/60 and better is where you get into the good round ball twists.
1/72 is not fun to load, thats why my second flinter was done in 1/60
I shoot round ball only

[koger]

OK, here is my humble opinion from my experiences, shooting on a local and national level. The Gibbs and like minded rifles are truly super accurate pieces, designed to shoot MOA. The .58 with slow twist and Minie balls are accurate to an extent, but designed to shoot Minute of Man, or hit a man with a given projectile at a given distance, any hit devastating. I have a .45 copy of a Whitmore, not Whitworth, with a 1-20 twist or 1-18, I believe, I know it is one of them, and it shoots a 430gr bullet with 5 grease grooves and a 500 grain with 5 grooves, vegetable fiber wad soaked in veg. oil and 100-120 grains of 2ffg black powder, much better than I can shoot, I have cut 5 shots overlapping, with no paper between shots at 100 yds and nearly the same at 200yds. The Minie's wont come near that accuracy, the ones I have shot an seen shot, but do what they were designed for. The soft Mini'e with its hollow base/skirt, flares out, and acts like a heavy round ball, needing minimum spin to stabilize, even with the heavy weight. It is not nearly as aerodynamic, more likely to drift with wind, and has a more pronounced trajectory. The projectiles of these rifles are not even remotely in the same type, when you get to specifics.

[Beerd]

Fred

what have you found with a 1/72 twist that makes it "not fun to load"?



my answer to the original post, "It's Magic".
..

[johnson1942]

koger, good post. im used to being able to take the eye out of a rattle snake at 100 yards and if the gun wont do that i dont feel comfortable with it. out here deer are shot mostly at 125 to 200 yards. i want the very spot i aim at as the one i hit.

[idahoron]

idahoron, what is the weight of the bullet in your .45? ive been shooting my .45 1/30 twist some every day and it is a tackdriver. i uses a 335 grain bullet but if your useing heavier i may try swageing up the weight you have. love that bore diam and twist. i had my neighbor weld up a gong and i cant get enough of smaking it. looking forward to you reply.

My bullets are .446" and they are 409 grains. Ron

[johnson1942]

thanks.

[Sharpsman]

Regardless of the rifle 'make' design-wise....the name doesn't mean accuracy! What defines 'accuracy' is the rate of twist aka ROT and the bullet that one chooses to shoot in it! The 'laws of physics' can't be denied and whatever accuracy is accomplished with a rifle will depend on a projectile that coincides with the ROT! With cast bullets in the range of 500-700 grs. weight the accuracy obtained can be gotten with a 1-18" to 1-20" ROT! I have proven this many times in testing. For those that are attempting to shoot these same weight bullets in ROT of 1-60" or slower....I wish you well because you're going to be very displeased!

[Nobade]

I dunno about that - my Parker Hale '53 has a 1:72 twist and it drills a ragged hole at 50 yards and usually holds under 2 inches at 100 shooting 500 grain bullets. Of course it's a .577 caliber and shoots hollow base Minie' bullets or recently paper patched hollow base Pritchett type ones. These rifled muskets do shoot quite well, but can't compare to a Gibbs or a .451 caliber military rifle like the Volunteer or Whitworth at longer ranges. They do, however, allow a very fast rate of fire and are plenty accurate to be quite deadly to 300 yards or so. So they do exactly what they are intended to do, which is be used in war by regular troops. The long range rifles are great for sniping or shooting paper, but they would be worse than useless during close combat situations.

-Nobade

[Sharpsman]

You're just not going to shoot stabilized bullets of 500 grs. plus out of a 1-72 ROT!! Physics....can't be denied!!

[fouronesix]

You're just not going to shoot stabilized bullets of 500 grs. plus out of a 1-72 ROT!! Physics....can't be denied!!

You need to do more research on the subject and understand physics a little better. Here's a 4 shot, wallowed out hole @ 50 yards. Original M1863 Springfield T-1 rifle musket shooting a Minié. I guarantee the twist is 72". Also a 10 shot 50 yard target. Original M1861 Mason contract rifle musket shooting a Minié. I guarantee the twist is 72".

[Nobade]

That's what they will do if you load them right.

-Nobade

[Sharpsman]

You need to do more research on the subject and understand physics a little better. Here's a 4 shot, wallowed out hole @ 50 yards. Original M1863 Springfield T-1 rifle musket shooting a Minié. I guarantee the twist is 72". Also a 10 shot 50 yard target. Original M1861 Mason contract rifle musket shooting a Minié. I guarantee the twist is 72".

It was good basically for 'massed fire' at close ranges!

[dondiego]

Your gonna need to take a closer look at the groups on post # 15. They would work for massed fire too.