7.5x53.5 M1890 for Schmidt Rubin 1889

[Stoats]

I see one of these rifles in my future, and want to load a bullet as original as possible, with the knowledge of now. The idea is that the bullet would run heeled PP with the M1889 Schmidt Rubins, and gas checked on the heel shank for a fat 303 with a worn throat.

Here's the post on Swede Nelson's group buy forum:

Hello.

I'm working on designing a bullet to replicate as far as possible the old heeled & paper patched 7.5 GP90, and would like to gauge interest. What I have come up with so far.

Basically, this is the original cartridge and bullet:



There's an iron cap to the bullet which we can forget about. For the rest, apparently the bare bullet measures as follows (will confirm once I've got hold of one myself:

Body: .315"
Heel: .302"
Length of heel: .233"
Length of bullet: 1.167"

Small hollow base in the heel. Consider that a "(very) nice to have" rather than a necessity.

2 wraps of paper to add .006".

Yes, the bores run about .308" groove and under .300" lands. No, they are not .304" (that figure comes from people measuring a groove to the opposite land - they're 3-groove). The bullet is vastly oversized and is swaged by a long tapered throat. I'll measure one, but I'd be surprised if the hardness of the originals was over 11 or 12 BHN. As for the size, that's just how they were in the original.

Right. So I was thinking: make the bearing section Loverin-style, with lots of grooves.

But, how many people want to load heeled PP for an obscure cartridge? Not that many.

But how many people have a fat .303 with a long throat? Plenty. It just so happens that the heel is basically the same diameter as a .32/8mm gas check shank (.3015", or correct me if I am wrong). So, here we have a bullet with a long parallel section, to nicely fill a cordite-wrecked Enfield, with a gas check. The long shank will act as another (shallow) lube groove.

Am I crazy? Perhaps.

Or I may have solved 2 problems with 1 bullet.

Thoughts?

Any thoughts? Any interest?

[enfield]

My 1889 blows out the neck extra large as it is ( I know of others that do this as well ). how would a heeled boolit be an advantage ? would it have to be paper patched to make it work ? I've been sizing the necks down as little as possible to hold the boolit but maybe theres a better way.

[Stoats]

The heel is there in the original., and that is what I am trying to recreate as far as possible, avoiding the finning that is likely from a smooth sided boolit.

[Stoats]

Otherwise all diameters could be increased .006 to give a hollow based heeled bullet with the original overall measurements, but as a conventional grease groove design.

But if you could safely chamber a normal .321" with gc, that might have the same effect, or even better.

[45 2.1]

You might try the 323471. Size the base to fit into the fired case neck and taper the bands to fit that long funnel like throat/leade.

[jonk]

Unless 'just because' there is no reason to re-invent the wheel here. Slug your bore (mine is spot on at .308), pick a suitable mold (I like a 200 gr Lee), size properly, and go to town. The 1889 is plenty strong for any cast load you're going to shoot.

[Wdog01]

Mr. Stoats: I use LEE 8mm MAX 235 grs. bullets sized to .321 with gas-check. Plus 28 grs. of ACC5744. Works perfectly and gives about 1900fps. Similar like original ammo GP1890.

[Newtire]

Mr. Stoats: I use LEE 8mm MAX 235 grs. bullets sized to .321 with gas-check. Plus 28 grs. of ACC5744. Works perfectly and gives about 1900fps. Similar like original ammo GP1890.

.323 seems like a halubba-big boolit for a .307" bore. I know that the throats are large like this. I have used a .310" boolit (Lyman 311290) before I found out about the large diameter throat situation. Will have to give this one some further investigation.

[Wdog01]

Hello,
... I size to .321
... bore is .310
... you are right, bullet is rather bigger.
On the other hand, original GP1890 Swiss military lead bullet was .315 without paper patch and .321 together with paper patch.
So we can say:
... you can put min. .321 to the throat.
... the lead bullet .315 (without paper-patch) is OK
... the size between .315 and .321 is a subject for test. In my opinion is clever and economic to use LEE 8mm Max or Karabiner Bullets.
Bye Ales.

[Newtire]

Like I say, I'll have to give this one some thought and a chamber cast.

[zuke]

I just PP an as cast boolit. Come's out around 314 pushed with 5gr of 700X

[Ricochet]

Can any of you tell me what the I.D. of your fired case necks is? My 1889 hasn't gotten here yet, and of course I'll test it myself, but this would help me with my thinking about what to try. I'm looking at posted chamber casts and seeing an outside neck diameter of .355", and suspecting it will come out close to .323" I.D. My thought is that paper patching (or perhaps using an 8mm boolit) to fit the fired case with little or no sizing would extend the life of the brass.

Another question: Have any of you tried loading for the 1889 with large boolit and case neck diameters with Lee dies? Does the larger diameter cause hangups in the bullet seating die?

[Maven]

Can't answer your questions, Ricochet, but glad to see you posting again. You've been missed!

[Ricochet]

Thank you, Maven!

I just got my 1889 from Simpson Ltd, and it is beautiful! Simpson is great to do business with, too, BTW. I haven't done anything besides pull it out of the box and snap a few pics, because I'm busy making a batch of soap today!

[Duckiller]

Welcome back Ricochet! I don't understand this thread! I have a Bubba'd 1911 Schmidt-Rubin 7.5x55 and everything I have ever read says it is a slightly undersized 30 caliber. Jacketed .308 bullets work as do cast boolits sized with my smallest 30 cal sizing die. Must admit I do not shoot it that much. I hate to throw away the pretty Swiss brass but depriming Berdan primers is a pain. I do have some 284 Win brass but with our condor protection laws I don't hunt with it and ranges are packed on weekends. Are people saying that these rifles have had too many cleaning rods run through them and have large barrels?

[Ricochet]

Not at all. They were designed and made with very large diameter chambers in the neck area, long tapering throats, and originally loaded with swaged lead bullets with a steel jacket cap on the nose only that didn't contact the bore. The bullet was heeled like a .22 LR bullet, with a hollow recess in the base to tuck the paper patch into. The diameter of the main bearing surface was about .315" on the naked bullet, and the heel was about .308", according to "Guisan" on theswissriflesdotnet forum who took some apart and measured them. The bullet was paper patched and lubed on the outside with Vaseline, the final diameter being .321" on the main body and .314" on the heel that went into the case. This is way oversized for the bore, but there is a long tapered throat to swage it down. That's the way the Swiss did it from 1890-1923, when the GP90-03 round with the 213 grain paper patched, steel capped lead bullet was replaced with the GP90-23 round with a round nosed 190 grain jacketed bullet of .306" diameter, which is a proper groove diameter fit in these rifles but is loose in the throat area. The 1889 rifles were long obsolete in military service then, but that ammo was primarily made for target shooting and apparently worked well enough to suit them. However, the Swiss didn't reload their ammo. If we size our necks down to hold a .308" bullet, then fire then in a chamber that lets them blow out to a diameter to accommodate a .321" one, then size it down again, they won't last very long. And it may well be that using a bullet that fills that long throat and can't tip or get eccentric will give better accuracy. I've been reading lots of posts about experiences with various loads, and results and opinions are quite mixed. But we do now how the Swiss did it for 33 years.

[Ricochet]

It didn't let me edit the couple of little typos I see in my post. Anyway, as a reminder, the 1889 rifles are different from the 1896/11, 1911 and 1931 rifles and carbines. The 1889s can't safely shoot the GP11 cartridges or modern commercial 7.5x55 cartridges as the action with the rear locking lugs can't handle the pressure. It was marginal with the lower pressure 1890 cartridges. The case length was 2mm shorter, and I've already mentioned the much larger diameter bullet, chamber neck and throat diameters. With the 1911 you don't have these concerns, and the 1896/11s are 1889/96 models with the stronger upgraded action with the lugs moved toward the front, and were rebarreled to use the GP11 round with the .306" jacketed spritzer boattail bullet. They all look similar, but the pre-11 models are different critters!

As for cleaning rod wear, the Swiss didn't use cleaning rods for this reason. They used pull through brushes and swabs with a line on each end. The approved method was for two men to use it with the rifle horizontal, pulling the pull through all the way through one way then back the other, something like using a cross cut saw. That prevented belling either the muzzle or throat rifling.

[Ricochet]

Spritzer bullet. I think I've been autocorrected.

[zuke]

I use LEE Collet dies, no problem's yet. I also use the same type collet dies for my 308 96/11 schmidt rubin

[Ricochet]

Great! That's what I use, too. I'm prepping some "Fat 30" boolits from a group buy several years back that I intended for the Mosins. They're something like 210 grains and cast at something like .317" if I remember right, with a nose reminiscent of the Lee boolits for the SKS and AK, with conventional lube grooves and a gas check. I sized these to .314" when I checked them. I just measured the nose, it has a fairly long .308" section ahead of the top band. Those will certainly do for fire forming my brass and are just liable to shoot well as they are. My intention is to cast some more of those for paper patching. I've never done any if that. I've been reading about it with interest since I was a kid.