NOE 358009 boolit and a 35 whelen

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman i believe you'll see a reduction in groups with heat treated. i've seen a couple of others here report the same thing in their whelens. Just got back from shooting and getting groups measured. Wasn't a bad day at the range and i'm thinking a little tweaking now will get me where i want to be.

[35 shooter]

Nice day at the range today with hardly any wind at all. Think a bit of tweaking on seating depth may get me there with 4350.

results @ 100 yds. with 280 gc. boolit
(1) 54 gr. imr4350 5 shots...2.244"
(2) 54 1/2 gr. imr4350 5 shots...3.5"

results with 280 gr. pb boolit
(1)48 gr. imr4350 5 shots @ 100 yds. no leading but shot about 9 to 10" left of poi. First time that's ever happened. 2 were about 1 1/2" apart on paper but the other 3 went left of paper. Have to shoot this one again.
(2) 12 gr. unique 5 shots @ 100 yds....1.877"
(3) 12 gr. unique @ 50 yds....1.296"

At 50 yds. i fired one shot with the unique load then moved the power ring on the scope till it lined up with the boolit hole. The closest i could get was the tip of the bottom post touching the hole on 3 power. I fired the rest of the group using the tip of the post.

Looks like 48 gr. and 54 gr. are best with 4350 and the gas check boolit. The 280 gr. is not shooting as accurate as my 2oo gr. boolits yet but not all that bad either.
I know where everything is hitting on target now so i'll take the chrony next trip and play with seating depth too.
Can't figure out why the pb shot so far left with the 48 gr. 4350 load? The unique load is centered just like all the rest.

[Yodogsandman]

Sounds like you did had a good day! That PB with the 48gr 4350 might be jumping the rifling from too much speed. You wouldn't think it could where it starts off with a slower push with the 4350. Do you HT the PB's?

I shot today, also. A good day all around! Better groups at more speed. Heat treating works! I have a head scratcher, too. I shot for 10 shot groups. I had to shoot just 5 at a time due to barrel heating. At 48gr IMR4064, I got two separate groups on the paper, side by side, without changing the scope settings. I didn't measure but both 5 shot groups look about 2". The first shot of each group, with a ambient temp barrel, doubled the size of that group. Might've killed that other scope!

I tried digging some out of the berm. I've got to bring a shovel, I guess. Loose dirt 8" in diameter about a foot deep, no bullets. No fractured pieces. Some shiny bits but not enough to account for even one bullet. They must be real deep! Hope it's not a 300gr frangible boolit.

[Shuz]

(quote)I shot today, also. A good day all around! Better groups at more speed. Heat treating works! I have a head scratcher, too. I shot for 10 shot groups. I had to shoot just 5 at a time due to barrel heating. At 48gr IMR4064, I got two separate groups on the paper, side by side, without changing the scope settings. I didn't measure but both 5 shot groups look about 2". The first shot of each group, with a ambient temp barrel, doubled the size of that group. Might've killed that other scope!(quote)

Yodogsandman--If you are getting 2" groups of 5 shots at 100 yds with the 358009 and 48g of 4064, I'd say you have reached the pinnacle of success! You might change primers and see if that give you any better accuracy, but I doubt it!

[Yodogsandman]

35 shooter, Maybe by staying in the barrel longer, because of the slower push start with 4350, the PB is being gas etched on the base. Velocity must be above 1800 FPS with 48gr.

Shuz, I just have similar weight boolit, a NEI 358 282 GC that drops at 301gr using COWW + 2%SN. I've always been amazed by your results with the 358009. It was my primary reason for wanting a 358009. This mold of mine was available as I looked for a 358009 so, I got it. 35 shooters detailed new testing with the 358009 has given me a lot of great ideas and I've certainly benefited from it.

My gun shoots better than me. I can hold it to 5/8" groups with j-word bullets in this gun. I expect about the same results with cast boolits, if I do my part. I still have a lot of tinkering to do, you've set the bar pretty high. I suspect the scope. I took it (the scope) off my deer rifle because I didn't trust it after a bad fall. It's all banged up. Just using it as a temporary replacement for my other scope that's being "repaired or replaced".

[TXGunNut]

My HT sequence is size, oven HT/quench, resize/seat GC/lube based on the Fryxell book.
Have you tried AC boolits for the PB loads?

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman glad the ht is working for you. Like Shuz said 2" with cast @ 100 yds. is not bad at all, but i understand the wanting to get it better, i'm the same way. I almost did a back flip for joy off the bench when that 54 gr. load shot around that again on my last session though. Still a few things to try from here though like seating a bit deeper, crimp, different primer,etc.
LOL after looking at 3 to 5" groups for awhile there, that 2" looked great for a change.
Could try upping the charge a bit i suppose but i'm VERY close on the boolit base now. I can go a little farther without compression, but the way i'm seated with the boolit, i don't have far to go. Accurate powders recommends 55 gr. as max with aa4350 and the 358009 and that's not compressed and imr 4350 is a bit faster on the burn chart, so i'm thinking leave well enough alone and try a little tweaking.

BTW, talking about tight groups with cast...i've shot several bughole groups with my 200 gr. boolits, but they never held up. I felt very blessed to wind up with loads in the 1 to 1 1/2" range. LOL i think Sierra and Hornady make a better bullet than me...darn it!
Still trying though!

[35 shooter]

My HT sequence is size, oven HT/quench, resize/seat GC/lube based on the Fryxell book.
Have you tried AC boolits for the PB loads?

Actually i did try with some of the light loads to see and i don't think i even posted on it. It shot a little bigger group that way, but no leading. Really need to try it some more cause it could have been just me.
What surprised me was that 48 gr. load and no leading with the pb ht. I think that load MAY have tried to shoot but most of the group was off the paper on the left and i just couldn't tell for sure.
LOL when i get this gc boolit as good as i can, i think i'm gonna go pb crazy. I love that thing.
If i could find a load from 1600 to 2000 fps., i think i would do most of my hunting and shooting with it.
LOL I could sit at the range all day with 12 gr. of unique like it is.

[Yodogsandman]

Two inch groups aren't bad at all, if that's the best the load combination/rifle/equipment/shooter are capable of. That's definitely minute of moose! I'm just starting load development. This is fun! I like shooting this gun! I'll probably work on this until I get a permit, then I'll take it hunting.

Got to love that Unique! Very economical and shoots good, too! I also shot my 6.5 Swede on Sunday, too. First time with a new mold, the 6.5mm cruise missile. Tried 9.0gr Unique. Ten shot, 1 1/2" group at 50 yards, 2 1/2" at 100 yards! This mold's bullets are known for yawing, mine is no different. Half caliber tipping shown in the bullet holes (oblong holes). I always try Unique.

I think IMR4350 works better, at least with j-words, compressed just a little.

[35 shooter]

Yodogsandman the aa 4350 powder does show compression with the 204 gr. and 250 gr. cast boolits but not the 358009. It may be that they ran out of accuracy there or weren't getting much gain in velocity anymore and not anything pressure related. I am getting a bit of primer flattening at 54 1/2 gr. of imr4350 but case base is still measuring the same and no marks on case head. Thing is imr4350 will lay down a bit under the boolit and still not be compressed because of airspace between the big powder granules and without specific data it's kind of hard to tell when it's actually compressed.
I haven't been able to get any hard data on imr 4350 with the 280 gr. boolit but i do have data from an old hornady manual with 250 gr. jacketed. According to that with a 250 jacketed i could go 4 more grains from where i am. But of course i'm using a 280 plus gr. boolit which is seating deeper too i'm sure.

Thus my delima at this point? Play with seating depth a bit at 54 gr? Or press on a bit further with the charge? Much more powder won't leave much room for playing with seating depth? Guess i could push a bit more and if it doesn't get better, go back to 54 gr. and play with seating depth then?
Suggestions?...Tx. Yodog?....Anybody?

[TXGunNut]

Guess i could push a bit more and if it doesn't get better, go back to 54 gr. and play with seating depth then?
Suggestions?...Tx. Yodog?....Anybody?-35 shooter

All I can say is that in my rifle using IMR4350 under the 250 gr 360318 I began to lose stability @ 51.7 grs and by the time I reached 54.0 grs I had lost any semblence to a group. I was hoping for another "sweet spot" somewhere around 54 grs but things fell apart before I got there. Have you noticed any signs of unstable boolits? I noticed a few I'd overlooked above 51.5 grs and it was quite obvious @ 54 grs. I didn't do a progressive ladder but I have several similar loads shot at different times and when I gathered them up it was pretty obvious. We both have 1:14 twist but you have a longer tube and there are other factors as well. As we know rifles are individuals but I'm pretty sure 54 grs under the 358009 would not work at all in Ol' Ugly above about 1600 or so. Another powder might work better for both of us but I'm not sure.

Gee, I bet that didn't help a bit. I'm sorry.

[35 shooter]

TxGuNut, no, i never noticed any signs of yaw or anything with the 009, even with the unique loads. I was very surprised by that by the way. Then again, i haven't shot past 100 yds. with it so far.
Don't be sorry one bit...your input is ALWAYS appreciated. I just hate your having a bit of trouble with your new boolit. Another powder may well fix that.
I was hoping for a "bit" more accuracy on the upper end with 4350 and the 009, but i'm not quite through with it yet as it has showed promise. There's a bit of wiggle room on the charge yet and a lot inward seating depth to play with. In fact, the more i think about it, the more i think that's it for the 009.... the seating depth. We'll see.

[Yodogsandman]

I'd try the seating depth first. It might fine tune your load. I'm .050" off from where my boolit starts to engrave on the lands. I plan to move forward in .010" increments when I find the amount of powder mine likes. I have about .2" left for length in my magazine. At least with j-words, my rifle likes full bore loads. That's held true for 200gr,225gr and 250gr bullets. I don't mean to say you should go over pressure for your load combination. Stay safe!

My plan is to work up in 1.0 gr increments until I see signs of getting close to max pressure. Go back to the best load. Try a 1/2 gr on either side. Go to best load. Play with seating depth. Go to best load. Try some wizardry. Neck tension, crimp/no-crimp/light crimp/med. crimp/etc. Go to best load. If not happy, try different primers. As you know, I started with fit and the boolit hardness for the expected velocities.

I don't know if anyone else does this but, I rotate my bullets as I seat them. At least twice, sometimes three times. I feel that it helps straighten out bullets that might be seating crooked. I've never checked run-out except by crudely rolling them on the bench top. I rarely roll them to check. Seems to help me.

[35 shooter]

I see your no stranger to fine tuning a load Yodogsandman. That is definitely the right approach....looking forward to your results.
Yes, i'll probably play with seating at this point to get that out of the way. I can only go in about about .040" and still have half the check still in the neck. Their homeade checks and go on tight, but of course don't crimp on. I can always go back to commercial checks and seat deeper, but lol my homeade checks out shoot them, but i don't want them below the neck.

[Yodogsandman]

I need to learn to make my own checks. Glad I got a case of .35's and .30's about 20 years ago, can't believe the prices now. Recently, I had no 6.5mm checks but, got a couple of deals cheap. That's great that you can tailor your checks to your boolit like that.

My checks are fully exposed to the gases. The bottom of the check is almost even with the bottom of the shoulder. I've read that it doesn't matter too much. From my perspective, it doesn't seem to matter.

[35 shooter]

I need to learn to make my own checks. Glad I got a case of .35's and .30's about 20 years ago, can't believe the prices now. Recently, I had no 6.5mm checks but, got a couple of deals cheap. That's great that you can tailor your checks to your boolit like that.

My checks are fully exposed to the gases. The bottom of the check is almost even with the bottom of the shoulder. I've read that it doesn't matter too much. From my perspective, it doesn't seem to matter.

Yea, i found out the check is as important as any other component in the load. Different materials and thickness definitely shoot a bit different. When you find the right one, it can tighten groups. LOL it can also open a group up.
The only thing i worry about is getting below the neck and have one fall off in the powder charge. They fit tight, but don't crimp on like hornady's.
My check tool is the free chex you use with a hammer. It's slow, but you can make em anywhere.

Nice looking mould and boolits you have there.

[Yodogsandman]

Thanks 35 shooter, I wanted to show the depth into the case with a photo I had. I'm using expanded 30-06 cases so the case length is short, about 2.460"-2.466". I'll trim next time, just to even out the length. Just for consistancy.

I think I'd try to snug up into those lands a little with your boolit nose. If your crimping to get a better powder burn, you won't need to, if the boolit nose is in the lands. It impedes the boolit enough for better powder ignition, I think. I could be completely wrong if that's a bore riding boolit. Then the first band would need to be touching the throat. Also, by not using a crimp, it removes a variable from your load equation.

[35 shooter]

Thanks 35 shooter, I wanted to show the depth into the case with a photo I had. I'm using expanded 30-06 cases so the case length is short, about 2.460"-2.466". I'll trim next time, just to even out the length. Just for consistancy.

I think I'd try to snug up into those lands a little with your boolit nose. If your crimping to get a better powder burn, you won't need to, if the boolit nose is in the lands. It impedes the boolit enough for better powder ignition, I think. I could be completely wrong if that's a bore riding boolit. Then the first band would need to be touching the throat. Also, by not using a crimp, it removes a variable from your load equation.

I'm pretty jammed with this boolit....151" into lands and front band has good throat contact all the way around. My overall length is 3.182" and any further the extractor won't pull it out. I may try a bit further into the case, maybe the front band needs a bit of relief?
I am fighting about a 4 1/2 # trigger pull....need to do something with that. I WILL take the chrono next trip. I need to know where i'm at on speed as that will tell me a few things.
BTW the triggers no problem, just a hassle. No crimp at this point as case mouth is sitting on a band, but i have to say, as bad as i hate to crimp for rifles, this rifle has consistently shot best with a crimp with the 200 gr. boolits.

[Yodogsandman]

WoW! Sounds like you have the fit perfect! Your groups are right there, whatever the cause it's probably a small thing. That crimp worked great on your 200gr boolit, It's something to try.

I understood that the Encore has an adjustable trigger?

I know the frustration of a heavy trigger, it causes me all sorts of grief. I also shot my 30-30 last Sunday, it's a H&R Handi type. The trigger pull is heavier than the rifle! I kept pulling it off the bags when I pulled the trigger! I think I've concluded that's the only problem with my load there. If I really concentrate and focus, I can pull off a great group. I was trying the load with a crimp for giggles. Opened the groups up X2. I hate to lighten the trigger pull any because it's a youth model. That was using the Lyman 311291 boolit (8.0gr Unique). If I make that cartridge too long, the action doesn't want to close right.

[35 shooter]

Hope everyone has a good 4th of July. Stay safe for the holiday.....35shooter!