Measuring ingot hardness

[Rompin Ruger]

Greetings!

I've acquired what would now be marketed as a Cabine Hardness tester...looks exactly the same in all aspects.

Observation: When testing 1# ingots from Lee ingot mold or from Mini-muffin pans, I'm getting very varied readings depending on where I take the reading...

Some that I poured that were all wheel weights vary from .068 - .085 (BHN of 10 -15)

This happens regardless if the ingots are 10 days old or 5 weeks old. I figure that some of the newer cast ingots from last pour session will be softer, but the real issue is that new or old(er) the hardness variance from front to back, side to side of an individual ingot...

Question: Is this normal? Is there something I'm possibly doing wrong in my smelting/fluxing that is causing variances in different areas of ingots?

Thanks!

[pdawg_shooter]

That is the same problem I had with that tester. I even tried 2 test side by side. Sold it and got an el-cheapo Lee tester and the problems went away.

[Rompin Ruger]

Thanks for your input, pdawg.

I did get some PM's that spoke to the issue... it would appear from other's use and comments, that the ingot (which I especially like checking" were poured (by me) into cold ingot molds...and they came out all sorts of lumpy.

Without a good double flat surface...it's hard to be accurate. I also was warned that reading the instructions very CAREFULLY are critical for it's to "just touch" the surface...then spin the marked nut one full turn... and check the dial.

there are apparently several things, being an amateur at this, I didn't do well enough to get consistent results.

That didn't solve your problem... but it gives me hope to do some more checking of a few bullets I got in a very troubled casting session...even sectioning to see if I have a void in the base...

I was warned NOT to do test an area with the letters on the ingot... guess the raised surface is prone to varied cooling and can change hardness...

Thanks to those who replied to a newbie's query.

[Calamity Jake]

Make sure to test in a flat area with no impressions or high spots around(1/4" minimum) the test area,
also be sure to test on the bottom of the ingot so there is a solid flat surface facing the spring.
Be sure that the screw is lubricated with some kind of lube that will not get tacky over time.
Double check the indicator you are using for proper workmanship.
If you have some known pure lead, test it to see if the 5-6 bhn reading is correct.

I've had me Cabin tree tester for about 5 years, it's always tested true.

[Green Lizzard]

i have both, like the lee better since i built a stand for the microscope

[Rompin Ruger]

Intriguing replies. Seems like in many things, personal preference is a big factor.

From replies here and PM's...it appears that at least for the Cabine, you need good flat surfaces all around. My ingots are a bit "lumpy"... figuring when poured they were just to store my COWW alloy. now trying to test hardness, surface irregularities are more of an issue...

Being I never gave ingot temps a thought, it's been shared with me that those poured in a cold ingot mold may cool differently than when repeated use warmed the ingot mold... resulting in different hardness... time since made into ingots is a factor as well.

I just cleaned my Cabine with Break Cleaner, and lubed to ensure there are no burrs or sticky spots...works slick(er) now, but don't really have a known sample to use to check calibration...

I will be far more cautious in pouring ingots I want to later check for hardness... I know bullets cool differently from ingots, and will have differing hardness, but I was concerned that perhaps when smelting and alloying, that perhaps mixing could be an issue resulting in varied hardness over an ingot...but I was checking on lettering,uneven surfaces, etc. My bad!

Thanks to all for the input and coaching... great to be able to learn from others hard work!

[bangerjim]

I have Lee and Cabine. Hate Lee......love Cabine. Fast and accurate...if you do it right!

Do 3-4 tests on the FLAT ingot and average. All I test are within a few thou of each other which relates to about 1 Bhn deivation. Good 'nuff or gubmint werk!

It is portable and fast! I take it to the scrap yard with me.

Lee takes too long, is hard to read, sensitive to lighting and angles, very hard if not impossible to test ingots and large hunks, and ties up a press. No micro stand or water bottle will improve the problems with the microscope.

Your Cabine-like device should give you accurate, reliable, repeatable measurents as long as you follow the directions.

Good luck with it!

bangerjim

[pdawg_shooter]

The Cabin I had I bought used, for about the same price as a new Lee. After I could not get consistent readings I called the guy who sold it to me. He said he had the same problem, and that is why he sold it.

[kungfustyle]

if you look at the average 10 to 15 that is 12.5 and right where coww should be. Just an observation, but, if you want to sell it I'll take it....

[Rompin Ruger]

Thanks, KFSyle, but I think I've gotten enough input thru posts and pms that lead me to believe that a large % of the issue is with the "operator" (me!).

I had variance on wheel weight ingots cast a few weeks ago, recently some old ingots of Lino and my first attempts at big .45 cal boolits.

Alas, my ingots were "lumpy" (poor pour into cold ingot molds, some warm, some hot molds), too close to the edge...areas that had sunken down due to uneven cooling, etc.

I notice the new(er) Cabine have a depression in the end of the big spring bolt... mine does not. I also noted that my dial indicator plunger (if that is descriptive enough) was "off center" on the spring bolt--way off center. Close examination showed the threaded part of the right angle dial attachment "bar" was not bent at 90*. Thus the plunger on the dial was WAY off center of the large spring bolt.

tweaking brought all into line so it sits in the center now...

I think "Operator Error" on my part has a lot to do with it...so I'll hang onto it and try to refine my technique.

Again, thanks to all!!

[calaloo]

I have a Cabine Tree Tester and have experienced the aggravation and inconsistency of testing ingots. Here's what I do: acquire some lift off beer caps (crown caps), pull the rubber gasket from them, use something to flatten the dent from opening, and pour a bit of your melt into the cap. After it cools file the surface of the alloy flat. There you have it, a perfect sample to test.

[bangerjim]

This argument can continue forever........and probably will!

It is all in the technique of the user. I used my Cabine right out of the box with excellent readings and extremely close tolerances to known samples. It's function is based solely on the spring constant of that big spring in there. Any skewed readings will be induce by operator error and/or poor quality/misalignment of the sample. Unless someone has fiddled with the adjusting nut, it should be right on.

I test 1# standard Lee/RCBS/Lyman ingots all the time as well and boolits without any problems. Since it does the test so fast you can easily do 3-4 test along the ingot and take the average, which is recommended.

To test boolits, I use different sized T-nuts to set the nose in and then into the machine. Works perfectly well! That eliminates the juggling around you do to try to keep the round nose of the boolit in place! And everybody has some T-nuts around somewhere!

And with the HF digital dial indicator installed, all the squinting and guesswork is eliminated.

The Lee works well too. I just prefer fast, convenient, accurate, portable and highly recommend the Cabine for the shop.


bangerjim