.22 LR Duplication

[35remington]

Excess, 700X is even worse than Red Dot because the flakes curl substantially, and the other mentioned ones have a large flake size as well, said by me because I meter them all. Call Red Dot terrible metering and Green Dot, Unique, Herco, 700X, Solo 1000 and the rest all stand right there with it. In other words, your whole list save for two. I realize I threw a few others in there but it makes my point.

Of the list you have, Bullseye and WST are the only truly "good" metering ones, yet in some measures the "terrible" ones will do with reasonable uniformity because the drum diameter is not too small. Too small a diameter is bad for squibs or partially filled cavities....the Lee Pro Auto Disk does not take well to below 3.5-4 grain charges with any of them but does reasonably well when cavities are larger. The problem with drum diameter (like the Lee Perfect Powder measure) is that if large the shear area is too big, so while the drops are reliable in terms of avoiding squibs they run to less consistency than a finer powder. I regularly throw 3 grains charges of Red Dot through my Lee Perfect with 100 percent reliability in terms of avoiding squibs but with admittedly larger charge variation than Bullseye. This doesn't show up on the chronograph as much as you'd expect.

In other works, don't go too low with large flakes in charge weight no matter what you have. Most of your list of powders are large flake.

If you're gonna suggest a good metering powder then list the ones that truly are. Your list is far too inclusive. I mean.....Green Dot? 700X? You can't be serious. If you're going to give Red Dot the finger, the inclusion of the others is mystifying to me. Clays may be marginally better due to its greater web thickness but it's no Bullseye in terms of metering. Not even close.

[sthwestvictoria]

The most recent Handloader magazine has a six page article all about this.
Although the only cast data is given for 22hornet, not .223
However obviously people are thinking about this same topic.

[kopperl]

No gas checks. I'm rearranging my shop right now so Icant get to the mold. It is a lee 6 cavity plain base

[rhead]

You do not have to use a .22 cal rifle to get the same results. Good accuracy and down range results can be obtained in 30 cal rifles also. Boolits from round balls to 100 grains work well. Also wad cutters in .357 rifles. You do use a little more lead.

They are all fun and effective.

[FLHTC]

Yeah, ya got me pegged. I do NOT weigh boolits or powder charges, and haven't in many years. I'll tell ya what, John Kort Is having a cast boolit silhouette match June 6-8 at Ridgway Rifle Club, Ridgway, Pa. Its 3 days of shootin' steel on the 500m silhouette range, and some guys are a bit more adventurous and play on the benchrest varmint rails 850-1000 yards. I'll be packin' an off the shelf 1967 vintage Rem700 30-06 with a 6x, and a sporterized 2-43 Remington 03-A3(original barrel) with 10x. Ya gotta knock 'em down to count, cast boolits only. Bring your gear and strut yer stuff!

Ridgeway is one helluva hike for me but it does sound fun and thanks for the invitation. Reading airport is closer and just as much fun.
http://maam.org/maamwwii.html

[richhodg66]

The most recent Handloader magazine has a six page article all about this.
Although the only cast data is given for 22hornet, not .223
However obviously people are thinking about this same topic.

Not sure if we got the same magazine, but in the table with results, the author shows the Lyman 225438 in his Remington 700 .223 as giving 1187 FPS with 4.0 grains of Blue Dot and grouping at 1.01 inch at 50 yards. This sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. In a perfect world, I'd be able to do this without gas checks, but I may have to switch to some other mold as I don't want to modify mine.

[gnoahhh]

Rich, I would suggest you grab a Lee .22 Bator mold from Midway while they're still available. (They seem to only run sporadic batches of them.) I've settled on that bullet out of my small capacity .22s. It edges out the 225415 and 225438 in my guns. In the Hornet, 1.5 gr. Bullseye for .22LR performance, 3.5 gr. Unique for a little hotter, and 6.0gr. 2400 for near .22RFM performance, all with the Bator bullet. (And yes I meter my charges, with an ancient Belding&Mull, and the flake powder loads give equal accuracy as with the easy-metering 2400- ± 5/8" @ 50 yards. 'Tain't rocket science.)

[richhodg66]

Gary, you're right, I'm gonna order a Bator mold today. I've been hearing too many good things about them not to.

Will older twist .22 Hornets easily handle a bullet that long? That 1.5 grain Bullseye load sound like the winner if I can get it to shoot well in this 219.

[gnoahhh]

Gary, you're right, I'm gonna order a Bator mold today. I've been hearing too many good things about them not to.

Will older twist .22 Hornets easily handle a bullet that long? That 1.5 grain Bullseye load sound like the winner if I can get it to shoot well in this 219.

It is only marginally longer than the 225438, so it should stabilize ok. I can't speak to slow twist Hornets as the last two I had, including my present one, were fast twist rifles (1-8½) that digest anything.

[FLHTC]

It is only marginally longer than the 225438, so it should stabilize ok. I can't speak to slow twist Hornets as the last two I had, including my present one, were fast twist rifles (1-8½) that digest anything.

The Bator does fine in a 1 in 10 twist but the 219 is most likely 1 in 14 or even 16. That's too slow for the bator

[richhodg66]

I figured it might be, but ordered one anyway. I have a couple of .223s, one is brand new, so I'm sure it has the fast twist. Truthfully, I think that MVP Predator is going to be better for my intended purpose than the 219, the 219 is just so graceful and points so nicely.

Kind of looking forward to the Bator mold, if it's like the other Lee six cavity molds I have, I'll probably just cast a few sessions with it and that will last me years before I pick it up again.

[Larry Gibson]

I use Bullseye for .22LR duplication loads in the 22 Hornet and the .223 with 225415 and 225428 cast of softer alloy such as 20-1 alloy but have used a lot of range alloy and COWWs + 2% tin mixed at 50/50 with lead. I AC them, GC them and either shoot "as cast" after TLing them in LLA or size and lube at .225 with a soft 50/50 lube.

In the 22 Hornet I use 1.5 gr to duplicate subsonic .22LR and 2 gr to duplicate HV .22LR with either bullet.

In the .223 I use 1.8 gr to duplicate standard/subsonic .22LR, 2.5 gr to duplicate HV .22LR and 4 gr to duplicate Hypervelocity .22LR.

I mostly use the 225415 because it is a better killer on small game. Exception being if cast soft and HP'd with the 1/16" Forster HP tool either is quite effective on small game when cast of 16-1 alloy and pushed at 1500+ fps with the 4 gr load in the .223.

I use Bullseye because it has proven to be the best powder for use in such low level loads. I have tried all the rest mentioned and then some. Bullseye always gives the best ignition and uniform burn which translates to the best accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[Johnny Boy]

richhodg66, your profile picture looks like the PCG range. If so must be close.
I'm in CHS and teach at The Citadel in the Civil & Env Eng Dept

How is the MVP working out?

[richhodg66]

Small world. I graduated from The Citadel in 1988, was just in Charleston earlier this year for the 25th anniversary. I live in Kansas now and that is where that range is.

I took the MVP out and it turns out the scope that came on it wouldn't zero. I would have replaced it soon anyway, it was a cheap one. Bought a Leupold and I'll get it back out to the range, I want to do some jacketed work first before starting cast in that rifle.

[Bogone]

I use Bullseye for .22LR duplication loads in the 22 Hornet and the .223 with 225415 and 225428 cast of softer alloy such as 20-1 alloy but have used a lot of range alloy and COWWs + 2% tin mixed at 50/50 with lead. I AC them, GC them and either shoot "as cast" after TLing them in LLA or size and lube at .225 with a soft 50/50 lube.

In the 22 Hornet I use 1.5 gr to duplicate subsonic .22LR and 2 gr to duplicate HV .22LR with either bullet.

In the .223 I use 1.8 gr to duplicate standard/subsonic .22LR, 2.5 gr to duplicate HV .22LR and 4 gr to duplicate Hypervelocity .22LR.

I mostly use the 225415 because it is a better killer on small game. Exception being if cast soft and HP'd with the 1/16" Forster HP tool either is quite effective on small game when cast of 16-1 alloy and pushed at 1500+ fps with the 4 gr load in the .223.

I use Bullseye because it has proven to be the best powder for use in such low level loads. I have tried all the rest mentioned and then some. Bullseye always gives the best ignition and uniform burn which translates to the best accuracy.

Larry Gibson

Did you ever try unique? The reason I ask i need to work up such aload for a 223 and I have lots of unique powder.
Thanks
Charlie

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, I did try and do use Unique. It is excellent for 22 Magnum level loads but does not burn as efficiently when loaded down to 22LR levels as does Bullseye, especially in the .223.

Larry Gibson

[richhodg66]

Larry, how necessary is the gas check at the 2 grains of Bullseye level? I would really like for a mild load like that to be a cheap and easy as possible, if I could cast those 225438s and not have to size or seat gas checks, it would be a plus.

[Alferd Packer]

The VARMINT magazine by Wolfe publishing is out and has an article on cast bullets and their best load is seven grains of Unique under the 55 grain cast bullet by RCBS.
Of course its not .22 LR duplication-in fact its .22 magnum at over 2,000 FPS and they of course have to use gas checks .
I too have always used 1-2 grains of Bullseye and a few grains more if you need the velocity. -Larry Gibson's recommended load .
I prefer the quiet , cat's sneeze, loads in .223, 30-06 ,30-30, 303 Br. all with cast bullets rifle and pistol-sans gas check.
I love this thread and just wanted to mention the Mag and article-CHEAP SHOTS- for anyone interested and for the shooter wanting Unique loads.
This is probably a bit off topic here because these loads are above .22 LR velocity and are very much louder, but they have a nice table of loads for.223 using TAC and 4198 along with other powders of that speed. Also mention of 6mm and 25-06 cast too, but mainly .223.
Nothing about trying to make the loads work an AR15/M16 , look elsewhere for that
Anyway the magazine is 7.99 plus tax at Books-a -million and you could just look at the load table and article in the store.
I bought it because they had other articles I like. Anyway- just FYI.

steve

[Alferd Packer]

For richodge66,
Wait for Larry's answer, I don't mean to answer for him.

I don't use gas checks and never have trouble with leading or with accuracy.
You must lube the bullet however, and 50/50 vaseline and paraffin melted, or even just some Crisco shortening wiped in the grease grooves will suffice, just keep the base of the bullet clean by giving it a wipe with a kleenex or paper towel. These are just with the 1-2 grain Bullseye loads.
I too try to keep the loads as cheap as possible.
I just use a finger to apply the Crisco or any cheap solid shortening when I'm making up a few Bullseye loads without gas checks.
I have shot these loads in my basement for years and the neighbors are none the wiser.I use bundles of newspaper, old phone books and old magazines. I dig out the lead and recast it .

steve

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, how necessary is the gas check at the 2 grains of Bullseye level? I would really like for a mild load like that to be a cheap and easy as possible, if I could cast those 225438s and not have to size or seat gas checks, it would be a plus.

Actually I don't often recommend shooting GC'd bullets sans GCs but the 225428 in the 22 Hornet is the exception. If one takes care to cast quality bullets, TL in LLA, let dry thoroughly and then load "as cast" they shoot very respectable out to 50 yards, perhaps farther, if the velocity is kept sub sonic. I found right about 1050 fps can be quite accurate, especially in the slower 14 & 16" twist Hornets.

Larry Gibson