Snider Enfield Accuracy

[milrifle]

I bought a Nepalese Snider Enfield from IMA a few weeks ago. I'm using modified 24ga brass shotgun shells and a Lee .600 round ball. I'm using Lee dippers for my powder and filler. I'm loading 4.0cc of Goex 2F (About 54gr by weight) then a thick (Maybe 1/8") 24ga cardboard wad. I don't have the compression deal for my press yet, so I'm just manually compressing the powder using a large punch on top of the wad and compressing it by hand. Then I'm putting 3.7cc of grits. Then a small amount of Crisco or Bore Butter (I've tried both). Then the .600 round ball. This load gives me a muzzle velocity of right at 1200 fps.

At 25 yards, it will make a 5 round ragged hole, but it's 2-3 inches left and maybe 5 inches higher than POA. It stays in the black if I aim at 6:00. From reading some of the accuracy horror stories on these rifles, I was pretty pleased with that group. However, when I move back to 50 yards, my ragged hole opens up to about an 8"-10" group, some of which are not even on the paper (NRA 100 yard rifle target). What's going on? I've not actually measured the groups, but just to estimate, I'd say my 25 yard group was 2". I would expect that to go to 4" at 50 yards, all other things being equal. But obviously, all other things are not equal. What's going on with this thing?

[skeettx]

Appears the small bearing surface is not giving the ball a good spin, so the gyro in not strong
Others??
Mike

[Argentino]

Did you measure bore dia. already?

.600" dia. RB seems to be enough in the few Sniders I´ve seen so far, but you never know for sure until measuring the bore. Mine is almost .595" at muzzle end.

Perhaps using a lighter BP load might help as well.


Argie.

[Outpost75]

Original .58 rifle-muskets were said to be capable 30-inch extreme spread at 600 yards.

[Gunlaker]

Have you tried anything close to the original loading? A friend has one and it's pretty accurate. He put his own double set triggers into it and I've watched him win a 200m off hand match with the thing. I don't know if he has ever shot round balls with it.

Chris.

[30calflash]

A couple thoughts. As Gunlaker stated something close to original may be better and closer to the sights.

IIRC it has a 1 in 48" or thereabouts twist, might be too much for a RB to run at that speed. Maybe a lighter/slower load?

With less powder you could try a patched RB loaded into the case with no fillers or wads. May need a smaller RB to do it or a very light/thin patch to make it happen.

[yulzari]

The Nepalese Sniders are 3 banders. 1:72 twist which is ideal for a round ball. Their main problem is innaccurate chambers which require some people to use a plastic case; but clearly yours is fine with brass if it is extracting and loading properly.

I am a little puzzled why you think you need to compress the charge. The case should actually need some form of filler to bring the ball to the mouth of the case, then a wad of your preferred grease (eg beeswax/tallow) and the ball (.600 is best if it will chamber). If is fine at 25 and opens out far more at 50 then maybe you need a higher charge to keep it supersonic. I use 65 grains of 1 1/2F and this is fine out to 50 and still is useable at 100.

I used to use raw wool as the filler but have gone over to foam backer rod (the round section foam that seals window units). I also do not use a grease wad at all. I simply dip the nose of the round into an aqueous hand cream (Udderly Smooth is widely recommended) before chambering the round. This keeps the fouling thoroughly soft and you can shoot all day without cleaning.

I hope that I am not causing offence in referring to another forum. Castboolits if excellent but, for Sniders etc. I recommend: britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com
as the fount of all knowledge on these guns and their like. It is the considered opinion there (and I agree) that these guns all have individual needs and half the fun is 'negotiating' with your own gun to find what it needs. There is a thread there on Snider accuracy and on alternative sights to let you move the POA about somewhat. Usually the POA can be raised somewhat by taking a fine sight instead of a full one.

Google books and archive.org will let you download lots of period books about shooting the Snider. Just remember that the period service rounds were based upon period knowledge and tried to cartridge load Minie type bullets. The round ball is better to 50 yards and a flat base is better overall.

[milrifle]

Actually, the twist is 1:78 on this one, not 1:48, although I know some of them, especially carbines, had a tighter twist than mine. I think a lot of the poor accuracy problems some have experienced is due to them using too long and/or too small of a bullet. That slow twist is only capable of stabilizing a something like .680 or so long bullet, seems like. I didn't write it down when I crunched the numbers a couple of weeks ago.

I did call myself 'sorta' measuring the bore. I took a .600 soft lead ball and dropped it in the chamber and then dropped 3-4 ACWW balls behind it and used a brass punch to bump the soft slug into the throat, then knocked it back out with the cleaning rod. It's a three groove barrel, so hard to measure, but I WILL say there was one of the three spots between lands that did NOT engrave, so the bore may indeed be a little greater than .600.

I will try altering the load. I have to say I'm surprised to see suggestions for lightening it up, though. Like Skeettx, I was thinking it might be too light already and loosing its stability due to marginal spin to start with. The original load was something more like 75 or 80 gr behind a much heavier bullet, so I was thinking I was WAY on the light side already. I can certainly give it a try though, if you think that is the problem. I might try going both ways, although I don't want to get TOO hot. After all, the thing is 140 years old. I also want to get a mould for a cylindrical bullet. Accurate has a couple I think I would like. I will have to get a better measurement before ordering a mould though.

I really appreciate the replies and keep them coming.

[Argentino]

milrifle,

I´m the one who suggested to use a lighter load and see what happens.
I would normally start with some lighter loads and then increasing them until finding a sweet spot.
But that´s just my approach and honestly, I´m afraid I don´t have a technical basis to support it. I would just try and see.

In my own Snider (a commercial 2 bander with a 5 groove barrel), I´ve come up with a light load of 35 grains by weight of homemade BP under a pure lead .600"-440 gn. plain base boolit from a custom mould (Similar to Collin Clark´s "Bumblebee" design) and using 20 gns. of cornmeal as a case filler.

Not spectacular but it consistently groups 5 shots series within 3" (most of the times) to 4" (when a flyer comes up) at 50 yards.

Please let us know your next results, Snider load developments are always way interesting.


Argie.

[milrifle]

Vulzari,

You posted while I was typing my response earlier this morning. I just saw your post. My comment about the twist rate was not in response to your post. I have seen some say they were 1:72 and others say 1:78. Not sure why the discrepancy. I have not bothered to try to actually measure it, but I think I will.

I believe my chamber is a bit egg shaped, but not enough to affect extraction. I also have some 24 ga plastic shells, but the primers perforate on almost every single round. No such problems with brass cases and Winchester LP primers. The plastic cases also burn little holes through them, but I don't guess it hurts anything. I've not noticed any venting out of the breech.

As far as compressing the charge.....Well, I don't know why. Just something I read you were supposed to do. Perhaps it is not needed? I have to admit, I'm pretty new to this. This is my first black powder cartridge gun. My only other black powder experience has been with a cap and ball revolver. I've been mostly a WWII rifle guy up until I got this Snider, but I'm sure loving this black powder cartridge thing.

Question on lubing the nose of the round. Sounds easy enough, but is there any chance the bullet could ride up onto the lube and hydraulically "ring" the barrel? I've been putting the lube under the bullet, but it sure makes a mess when it skeets out while trying to seat the bullet. I've been thinking about making lube cookies. I used to do that for the revolver. At any rate, I've had no hard fouling and just a few patches wet with Windex Multi Surface Cleaner is getting the bore clean as a whistle.

I also tried one round using a charge of black powder and then the 'filler' being a 50/50 mix of black powder and grits. The total black powder charge (Main charge plus that mixed with grits) was about 75 grains. Surprisingly, while still pretty high, it hit pretty much center, rather than 2-3 inches left. While I don't think it was as hot as a pure 75 grain load would have been, it was noticeably hotter than my other loads. I may experiment with that some too. I picked that up over on the British Militaria Forum. I have done a good bit of reading over there, but I have not joined that forum as of yet. It also seems to lock up my computer when I go there. Frustrating.

Argentino,

I will experiment with dropping my load back some as well as increasing it. You are using 35 grains of powder, but a much heavier bullet than my round ball, which is something like 310 grains or so. What velocity are you shooting at? I'm at approximately 1200 fps with this load.

[curator]

You might also try orienting the "sprue" on the .600 round balls straight up when you load them. Many hand-cast round balls have voids or "spongy" lead under the place where the sprue was cut off. If loaded to the side that will cause a flier as it is out of balance. Centered these voids have little to no effect. Compressing the powder charge equally usually results in a cleaner burn and smaller shot to shot velocity variation. Try doing this an a bathroom scale. I compress my round ball black powder shotgun shells with 30-35 pounds of pressure and it works great.

[Argentino]

Argentino,

I will experiment with dropping my load back some as well as increasing it. You are using 35 grains of powder, but a much heavier bullet than my round ball, which is something like 310 grains or so. What velocity are you shooting at? I'm at approximately 1200 fps with this load.

I still need to find that out. Of course I don´t expect it to be over 1000 fps at all. Is quite a mild load indeed (maybe too light) but it seems to group decently at 50 yards so that´s why I keep using it.

Please don´t get me wrong; I´m not saying this is the proper way of reloading for the Snider, but at least it was good enough for me so far. I still need to explore heavy loads and see how this boolit performs.

Next time I take it to the range I´ll bring the Chrony too and let you know my results.

p.s.
Did you measure barrel dia. at the muzzle? One of the few ones I´ve seen was somewhat eroded (maybe due to steel cleaning rod use). Round balls have a pretty small contact area so proper dia. would be quite important. Just my 2 cts.

[fouronesix]

I would expect that to go to 4" at 50 yards, all other things being equal. But obviously, all other things are not equal. What's going on with this thing?

Sounds like there is inconsistent spin of the roundball. A knuckleball effect if you will. A correctly sized, very soft alloy, short fat Minié or conical would be a possibility if there is enough rifling to give consistent spin.

[dromia]

Have you done a search on here, Sniders have been covered well on here before.

Usually they like over size bullets, they were never tack drivers, and to get things over size you do need to check your bore/groove diameter. My Mk1* will hold the black at 200yrds with Red River Ricks Snider collar button if I do my bit, my 2 bander will do even better and my carbines worse. I find the combination of the sights and my failing eyesight to be the biggest handicap to good grouping.

[toot]

my SNIDER is a BRITISH mfg. one, and I shoot .577 MINNIES out of it with no problem. I never thought of shooting a .60 CAL round ball out of it. am I shooting the wrong dia boolet out of it ?

[Argentino]

my SNIDER is a BRITISH mfg. one, and I shoot .577 MINNIES out of it with no problem. I never thought of shooting a .60 CAL round ball out of it. am I shooting the wrong dia boolet out of it ?

Nope, .577 Minies should be about right since they will expand upon firing.

RBs lack the expansion Minies have, therefore they need to be on the oversize side.

[milrifle]

Yes, I've done a good bit of reading here and elsewhere, but I hadn't seen my exact problem, i.e. shooting fairly well at close range but suddenly opening up more than expected at slightly longer ranges. I'm gonna experiment with loads and see if I can fix it. I'll let you guys know what I find. I really appreciate everyone's help.

[toot]

Argentino, thanks for explaining the DIAMETER difference in the .577,s VRS a .600 DIA round ball that I am shooting and why I am having no problem with them.

[longrange2]

Hi All, I had a large frame Martini made with a 58cal with a 1in33twist groove dia of 600th 2inch 24 guage brass and a modifyed lee mini ball with skirt removed. Makes bullet 740grans 105gr 1f powder,last range shoot 4inch at 100yds 10 shots,also has hit a 8x6target at 1000yds 3out of 10 shots. mini ball sized to 602th, it can be done. Vic . Australia.

[yulzari]

Vulzari,

Question on lubing the nose of the round. Sounds easy enough, but is there any chance the bullet could ride up onto the lube and hydraulically "ring" the barrel? I've been putting the lube under the bullet, but it sure makes a mess when it skeets out while trying to seat the bullet. I've been thinking about making lube cookies. I used to do that for the revolver. At any rate, I've had no hard fouling and just a few patches wet with Windex Multi Surface Cleaner is getting the bore clean as a whistle.

I have never had a problem and I have used it for calibres from .577" down to 8mm nor have I heard of others having a problem. Previously I made tallow grease wads to sit below my bullet. I have also used semolina and polenta as well as wool. The foam backer rod is the easiest and my new standard. I am not sure if it has a different name in American to English. Fond de joint rond in French if that helps. Yes Yuku.com has a mind of it's own. Their help staff have been very good to me though.