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Thread: 30-40 issues

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Where we are going requires us to take a certain route.

    If I am trying to squeeze the last tiny fraction of an inch in accuracy out of high performance rifle, I will;

    1. Weight cases of the same make and lot for uniformity and select those that have the same or near same weight which also will establish a lot of cases with equal internal powder capacity for uniform combustion.
    2. Trim the cases to uniform length
    3. Turn the necks for a uniform thickness and roundness.
    4. Deburr the flash holes and uniform the primer pockets to assist in uniform ignition.
    5. Fire form the cases to my chamber
    6. Neck size only using a Wilson bushing die that does not require the case to be expanded for the bullet I am using.
    7. Weight the individual powder charges
    8. Seat the bullets in a Wilson straight line hand die
    9. Anneal the cases every five firings.

    If I am shooting a Krag, any other military rifle and most sporting commercial rifles, most of the above is a waste of time and at most will deliver .25 MOA better accuracy. If an extra 1/4 inch off the 100 yards groups is what you are after, the yes do all of the above.

    The average guy, who is shooting the average rifle for hunting or recreational can skip 3 through 8 above and be as happy as a baby playing under a blanket. If he pays attention to the details of cast bullet shooting and fit, his rifle will shoot as well or better than it will be the best over the counter ammo.

    Felix was a former benchrest shooter who applied his scientific mind to squeeze the last tiny smidgen of accuracy out of a rifle and load. I know how to do it as well, but I really don't care enough to spend the time and detail fussing around with minutia that won't make any difference in my life and gun fun. I suspect most folks on this board are of the same ilk. But it is good to know the very fine point if that level of accuracy scratches where we itch.

    If was going to a bench rest match, I will load my ammo for that goal. If I am going out for fun shooting with my pals, I won't. The tiny details only matter if the last tiny bit of accuracy also matters.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master
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    Well said.

    If one really wanted to be anal about it, one would prep one case and proceed to use just it for a day's shooting by loading at the bench. Orienting that one case in the chamber exactly the same way for each shot, and ditto orienting the bullet in the case will provide even more dividends. (Best to have witness marks on the case and bullet mold, and have a setup wherein the throat diameter bullet is a thumb-press fit in the case neck so as to obviate the need to resize.) Better yet, start using breech seating techniques. I once worshiped at the altar of obsessive-compulsive handloading techniques, but now I too would rather have more fun shooting.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    I was addressing your comments about neck wall thickness variations being a problem using inside neck diameter of fired cases as a place to start with boolit diameter.
    You pretty much said inside neck diameter is not dependable because of neck diameter variation and I pointed out how to make it dependable by neck turning.
    I also pointed out that by regular neck annealing sessions with your brass produces more consistent boolit pull and case neck spring back.
    Weather for bench rest or plinking we are searching for accuracy and the key to accuracy is consistency. Boolit fit is not the only thing to pay attention to if we want consistent accuracy.
    If we were not searching for accuracy why then even bother being concerned with the just right boolit diameter? Boolit diameter alone is not the Holy Grail and without considering some other factors may leave you disappointed with your accuracy if accuracy is important to you.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    Battis, check the ID of the neck of a round you've fired that's closer to full pressure. I've found that low pressure loads don't expand the neck all the way. The bullet gets popped out, then the neck springs back to nearly where you started. I only recently discovered my .315 ID cases when working with 2000fps+ loads that produced over 30,000psi. Actually, I'd taken some hot 150gr jacketed loads to the range with me that day, those were the ones I noticed the .315ID on.

    Previously I had thought .311 was the max diameter bullet I could seat cause I was getting some resistance to chambering with .312. The resistance must've been coming from somewhere other than the caseneck. Could have been overlength cases, could have been the shoulder, as I have several Krags with minor differences in the chamber.
    Last edited by madsenshooter; 05-21-2014 at 04:53 PM.
    "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."

    -Thomas Jefferson

  5. #25
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    And don't forget to check the crown. The tiniest ding will give you fits. And if worn near the muzzle from cleaning rod wear, which could be causing problem, cut the barrel back and recrown it. I had a model 95 Mauser that sprayed them until I had the barrel cut back and recrowned, then 3 shots could be covered with a quarter. The difference was like night and day!
    Gary

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    I am sorry for the multiple posts on this subject. I don't want to sound like an arrogant jerk, but some of you guys showed an interest in learning about this stuff.
    Don't be sorry, Excellent posts here, your's and others. Many of us are just listening. I have a 30-40 krag I am having problems with as well. (Groove diameter of .3145). So many informational Gems in this thread, Thanks.

    Thread subscribed !
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ― The Dalai Lama, Seattle Times, May 2001

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    I was using reduced loads of H4895, about 27 grs. I'll try IMR 4064.
    The cast .309 bullets that I have fit easily into the muzzle, but the .311s don't go to the rings.
    The 1903 front sight is not permanently attached and I kept moving it for accuracy, which was a mistake. I'm going to load up some more rounds, and just fire for groups tomorrow.
    Geez, I might have to buy that other Krag they have at the store for comparison.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    I chase the shots all to often myself, but with a scope. I'm getting better at resisting the temptation to move things though. I have to remind myself, "shoot a group dummy, then make changes." Sometimes there's no group to seek the center of! JonB, sounds like you need some of NOE's 316 diameter molds.
    "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."

    -Thomas Jefferson

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonB_in_Glencoe View Post
    Don't be sorry, Excellent posts here, your's and others. Many of us are just listening. I have a 30-40 krag I am having problems with as well. (Groove diameter of .3145). So many informational Gems in this thread, Thanks.

    Thread subscribed !
    In one of his articles on the Krag rifle in early use, Col Townsend Whelen write of Dr. Walter G Hudson measuring the groove diameters of 10 Krag barrels and found them to run from the standard .308 inch up to as high as .318 inch. Hudson along with Mr. Barlow of Ideal Manufacturing designed Ideal bullet .308284 for the Krag, which used the newly developed (By Barlow) copper gas check.

    311284 is still a top bullet for the Krag rifle, when it can be found in a mold that casts bullets large enough. This bullet holds up well out to 500 yards when pushed out the barrel at 1.9K fps or thereabouts.

    So while your .3145 barrel is larger than most found, there are others still larger. Your solution will be to use a .315 bullet or a hair larger. You very may well have to neck turn your cases to remove some material to allow a bullet that fat to chamber with ease. This should work for you.

    There is allot of satisfaction in taking the odd ball old rifles with "issues" and finding the solution. We cast bullet shooters have far more tools at our disposal in terms of bullet diameter to deal with these anomalies. Jacketed bullet shooters unless they have to tools to make their own swage dies or the money to have them made, are pretty much stuck with what the various factories choose to make.
    Last edited by Char-Gar; 05-21-2014 at 05:34 PM.
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    I may have a mold for the original Krag boolit. It is an Ideal 8 cavity armory (huge) mold for the Ideal #311274. It is a 200gn round nose plain base. The mold was in a poor state before I sent it to Eric the mold master. Now it drops fairly round diameter boolits of about .314"x.302" These should be perfect for Krag rifles with rather large bore/groove numbers. They drop with a little flash on the round nose but a round nose top punch cleans that right up. I tried some in a 1903-A3 yesterday and they did pretty good. I made no attempt to develop a load but just tried what was in the powder dump 4756 at a setting I was using for something else 11.5gn with no filler. I fired 22 shots into about a 2" vert x 3" horizontal group. They will likely shoot darn good with a little load work.
    If anyone would like to try some of these I just added this boolit to the list at my site. I will run a special here at $10.00 per 100 as cast or $12.50 sized and lubed plus shipping.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
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    Are your bullets still key-holing?

  12. #32
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    The ten I fired the other day were making nice round holes in the paper. They just weren't going where I wanted them to go. I shoulda left the sight in one position to get some groups.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    My non-scientific, non-chamber case, non-slug pounded way of determining which bullet size best fits the throat.

    I am not a science type, nor much of a mechanical type of any kind. I tend to find my own way to do things with out regard to such things as casting, slugging and the like.

    Over the years, I have accumulated 30 caliber sizing dies that run from .309 to .314 in .001 increments with a few in between the whole numbers. I take a large cast bullet and size it larger than I think I will need. I then load it in a dummy round and chamber it in my rifle. I take a look at the bullet with a strong light and a magnifying glass. If, it shows lead shaving of any amount. I size another bullet .001 small, load another dummy round and repeat. When I chamber a round that shows no lead shaving, but only a slight burnishing of the bullet surface, that is what I use. You could probably go .001 smaller and still do just fine.

    This ain't science or engineering, but it works for me. An actual bullet in an actual case, chambered in an actual rifle IMHO is better than all the number in the world on a piece of paper.

    I am sorry for the multiple posts on this subject. I don't want to sound like an arrogant jerk, but some of you guys showed an interest in learning about this stuff. I didn't learn any of this stuff on my own. I learned it from those who had traveled the road before me. I tested it out and found it to be true and it enabled me to get just about any rifle to perform well with cast bullets with a minimum of frustration, hair pulling and failure.

    Bullet fit is the place cast bullet accuracy starts, but not where it ends. You must still consider;

    1. Bullet style as it pertains to the internal profile of the barrel and it's rifling.
    2. Bullet temper vis-a-vi, the pressure of the expanding gas.
    3. The twist of the rifling vis-a-vi the length of the bullet and it's velocity.
    4. Bullet lube that either works or doesn't work.

    The above are not in order of importance, but if bullet fit is not correct, then all attention to other factors and details are a waste of time. Get the fit right and start from there.
    I have bookmarked this thread and saved and printed several of your posts in this thread. I don't have a Krag but I do have several milsurps that demonstrate problems to a varying degree. Your methodology in solving problems is the best I have seen.

    Thanks for taking the time to post.
    John
    W.TN

  14. #34
    Boolit Grand Master Char-Gar's Avatar
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    Guys, I have posted this stuff a number of times over the years. I have decided to pull it all together in to a paper entitled "Accuracy Tips for Cast Bullets Shooting in Rifle". I will do it in a FAQ format and include the above posts as well as some more stuff about bullet alloy, bullet style, powder selection, rifling twist and anything else that comes to mind. In other words, I will try to pull my approach together in one place.

    I don't have a scientific mind and in fact detest numbers and math. I have a good education, but it has all been in the area of arts and humanities, having avoided any kind of science or numbers like the plague. None the less, I enjoy shooting and reloading, so I have had to boil all of this science stuff down to simple terms I can understand and find simply ways to apply it. So, if you are looking technical stuff, you won't get it from me. I can tell you "how" but won't try and explain "why", as I will fall flat on my face pretty quick trying to do that.


    If anybody wants a copy of this send me a PM with an email address and I will sent it to you in a MSWord document. This may take a few days or a couple of weeks. I don't have any classes to teach this summer, so I have some time to put it together. Anyway, it will be yours for the asking.

    Take care...Charles Graff
    Disclaimer: The above is not holy writ. It is just my opinion based on my experience and knowledge. Your mileage may vary.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master Pb2au's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullshop View Post
    I may have a mold for the original Krag boolit. It is an Ideal 8 cavity armory (huge) mold for the Ideal #311274. It is a 200gn round nose plain base. The mold was in a poor state before I sent it to Eric the mold master. Now it drops fairly round diameter boolits of about .314"x.302" These should be perfect for Krag rifles with rather large bore/groove numbers. They drop with a little flash on the round nose but a round nose top punch cleans that right up. I tried some in a 1903-A3 yesterday and they did pretty good. I made no attempt to develop a load but just tried what was in the powder dump 4756 at a setting I was using for something else 11.5gn with no filler. I fired 22 shots into about a 2" vert x 3" horizontal group. They will likely shoot darn good with a little load work.
    If anyone would like to try some of these I just added this boolit to the list at my site. I will run a special here at $10.00 per 100 as cast or $12.50 sized and lubed plus shipping.
    Bullshop,

    I checked on your website and did not see it listed. Am I just not seeing the forest for the trees, or do I need to contact you directly to inquire about ordering?
    Many thanks sir.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    Having owned, and cast for, around ten Krags over the last 45 years (I kind of lost count), I can verify Charles' observations. I guess I have been lucky as none of mine had egregiously oversized barrel dimensions. My good old (and I mean old) Ideal 311284 mold that pops them out at .311 has served me well with every Krag I owned, with accuracy ranging from "good" to "astounding". I wimped out on the current one- a G&H style Krag sporter- and cut right to the chase and installed a new Criterion barrel. .300 bore, .308 groove, and .310 throat should simplify things a bit when I get serious about load development.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master
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    PB2au
    I just checked and it is on the list. Tina has it listed as 308274 so she will have to be reprimanded for her mistake.
    If you would like some just PM me or email me. Email link should be at the bottom of this page.

  18. #38
    Boolit Master Pb2au's Avatar
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    Ah cool. No need to reprimand anyone, mistakes happen. PM inbound sir!
    Many thanks

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    I loaded 30 rounds, using the 160gr cast bullets sized to .311.
    10 with 7.3 grs Red Dot (suggested by a few posters)
    10 with 27 grs H4895
    10 with 30 grs IMR4064.
    Hands down, the Red Dot shot the best. Most accurate groups, nice neat holes in the paper, very mild recoil - the barrel didn't even get warm. I might step it up to 10 grs or so.

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    I get it - use as large a bullet as will chamber. Which means what - keep buying bullets and molds in increments?
    Instead of guessing, do a chamber cast of the chamber including the leade (throat) and leading bore cuts
    Regards
    John

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check