Patching a .35Rem Remington Model 81 Autoloader

[McFred]

Nobade is local to me and set me up with some .353" 215gr bullets for paper patching in my .35 Rem. I'm using "25 lb" tracing paper that's .002" thick. My once-fired brass has a .360" ID and the bore of my rifle is .3495". The groove is at least .357", but I was not very successful at getting a slug to fill out into the grooves.

About the only powder I have that's fast enough for good pressure and 100% load density on .35Rem is H414. I'm using the powder column to set my cartridge overall length in un-sized, once-fired cases. I tried 44gr of H414 to get good engraving, but I found 44 grains to be too much (~2150fps). Using less powder and jumping the patched bullet functions nicely, but is not that accurate. At 2100fps recoil is stout with a hard butt plate.

I have also tried 45gr Hodgdon Superformance (the next slowest thing I have) with magnum primers to get the pressure up early. Velocity's much slower, as expected, at ~1710fps with heavy bullet engraving. Both powders burn pretty well though not 100%. Only a few granules stay behind in the bore and chamber.

Successes:
I've gotten very good velocities with a very slow (for .35Rem) powder without leading the bore all while finding an OAL that permits mag-feeding a paper patched bullet in my antique rifle. Reloading is very simple by just replacing a primer and setting a bullet on top of a fresh powder charge; no sizing necessary. I also like how durable this tracing paper is. I've tried other papers in another project and had to scrub lead out of the barrel a couple times now. That is not the case with this tracing paper (so ).


Issues so far:
I've dug some bullets out of the hill and caught one in some jugs and the patches are not falling off (see picture). Some paper is trapped in the lube grooves on the bullet. I wrap two layers sopping wet with tap water, no fixative. The last lube groove might be collapsing when fired grabbing the patch. It's hard to tell with bullets that have hit something.

Also the powder is peening the bullet base which may affect accuracy(?). If the bullet heel is seated below the neck/shoulder junction the exposed shank is also imprinted with powder to the point where I don't see rifling. I'm using factory iron sights (not my thing) and I can get about 2" inside 50 yards.

I'm shopping for suggestions on getting the patch to come off 100% and maybe some way to protect the bullet's base.

Thank you to the Forum here for a lot of the information I've found (Nobade in particular)!

[s mac]

Not sure if I can offer any advice, but what alloy are you using? Maybe need something a little harder?

[Nobade]

Thin card wad under the boolits (if they are still in the neck)?

Granular filler replacing a bit of the powder?

Briefly wetting the patch so it's not dripping wet? (Sponge works well)?

All those fine tuning things y'know.....

-Nobade

[McFred]

Sure, I'll try some fine tuning things. I figured I'd post up this thread as a work-in-progress and I'd bug you less frequently.

I will try a cereal box cardboard wad and some filler with the H414, next time I get a chance. I'll also try not to patch so far up the ogive too, so maybe the rifling will do a better job of cutting the paper. If I just dampen this tracing paper it wants to roll up and becomes difficult to handle. So I'll turn the paper 90˚ to the grain. It'll contract a lot less once dry.

Smac, I'm not sure of the alloy, but it's pretty soft, but not pure.

[s mac]

What I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is the massive expansion at rear of the boolit, none in the front.

[McFred]

Sorry I didn't annotate.

It's two bullets base-to-base for comparison. One as cast, the other is captured after being fired at 10yd into milkjugs somewhere north of 1725fps. It's got rifling and little paper tutus at what's left of every groove.

The top one is a lighter-load of H414 that had the bullet heel below the neck. It has no rifling marks where it was swaged down to less than bore size; 360˚ of powder indentations.

[s mac]

I see, didn't register.

[CJR]

McFred,

Some comments. Typically, soft bullets seated below the neck can be asymmetrically swaged larger and be tilted/yawed/bent before they enter the rifling. So when the enlarged base CB enters the rifling it is resized down again and some unpredictable bore straightening occurs. Unless the bullet is a very long cylindrical shape (i.e. 311284), it retains the yaw/bent configuration and is inaccurate. Your recovered bullet with expanded base is typical to what Dr. Mann (The Flight of the Bullet) discovered through experiments; fast powders with very soft bullets in short barrels. Lyman also showed in-flight-photos of soft CB with expanded diameter bases. On muzzle exit the pressure is still acting on the base to expand the soft base larger. Obviously, accuracy is non-existent. If you are using a heavy bullet, try a harder CB and a slower powder. You still will have the yawing if using a deep seated CB. Try seating to the start of the neck(not below) so that the CB gets engraved into the rifling. Then locate the PP so that when the round is chambered, the PP will be in contact with the chamber's forcing cone. If you extract some rounds and they de-bullet, you may need to either reduce the CB diameter slightly or go to a shorter lighter CB so that less of the cylindrical part of the CB enters the rifling. If the CB is the right length, the base should not be below the neck and the PP can be located at the start of the bullet's ogive or slightly behind the ogive and be in contact with the chamber's forcing cone. A PP slightly behind the ogive, of a shorter CB, minimizes the length of CB engraved in the rifling and reduces de-bulleting.

Hope this helps. Enjoy the journey!

Best regards,

CJR

[McFred]

Thanks CJR, I will try to load the COAL to engrave the bullet and keep the bullet base inside the neck. Hopefully a thin wad will help keep the base square and flat as pressure rises.

[Nobade]

FYI, alloy is air cooled wheelweights.

-Nobade

[303Guy]

I'm not sure if I can offer anything helpful but I sure would like to see more photo's of your rifle!


I did a little 'sperimenting and came up with a way of overcoming that boolit base peening. That was to use a buffer between the powder and boolit. My preferred buffer was wheat germ from the supermarket. It doesn't take much and won't raise pressures since you would have to drop the powder charge a little to accommodate it. I also like wheat bran but that needs to be sieved and baked to kills bugs (if the loaded rounds are to be stored) and does have a tendency to leave a ring behind the shoulder. Wheat germ is oily and doesn't do that in a 303 Brit case.

Oh yes, I also had success with Dacron stuffing. I mean stuffing it in. Not into a sold mass but enough to form a buffer.

[McFred]

Thanks everyone for suggestions. I'll play with it and update when I've got something to report. I'll get some more pictures for you, 303 Guy.

*edit, pictures added:


Seems like the forum software resizes the pics pretty small. Might have to find another image host somewhere...

[303Guy]

Thank you. What a beauty! Yeah, I use Photobucket and copy a direct link. Yours are thumbnails and clicking on them opens a full size image. What a gem you have!

[McFred]

Well yes and no. There's the thumbnail and there's the image I uploaded at 1024w. The forum SW further down-samples them to 800w. Oh well. Live and learn. This weekend I think I'll have time to make a .361" wad punch and a .352" push-through die for the project. I'll get a box of cream of wheat on my way home too. Should last a long long time if I don't eat it.

[303Guy]

Oh right. Well, give Photobucket a go and see how you like it.

[McFred]

Got a wad punch made this last weekend, It makes nice clean little holes in cereal boxes. Wads are about .020" thick. Didn't have time to make the push through die though. Might not be required anyway. Does it matter if I have the wad over the filler or the filler over the wad? I can try it both ways but my first inclination is to put the filler under the wad...

I also wrapped some bullets with a 1/8" narrower patch to just cover the ogive with the paper 90˚ from before.

I might get a chance to tinker with this some with the holiday weekend.

[303Guy]

Wad over filler. I'd say the wad under the filler might constitute a ringed chamber! Wad over filler under boolit should protect the boolit base from peening.

[mikeym1a]

I am a novice at paper patching, but as I understand it, the slug is supposed to be .001-.002 over the bore size, and wrapped is supposed to be the same over groove size. Since you bore is .3495, shouldn't your slug be sized .351 before sizing? Perhaps Nobade will inlighten us. I try to size mine at .001 over bore size, and the same over groove size. Perhaps the 'fat' slug at .353 is pressing the paper too tightly into the lead alloy, and not letting it release. Just some thoughts. Not trying to confuse or annoy. Hope it helps. mikey

[McFred]

Mikey, I understand the convention says a core should be .0005-.0015 over bore. I don't know how critical that facet of PP is. Does it affect accuracy? or leading? Both? Neither?

I've also read about 'ideal' throats with gentle angles cut into the rifling too and this throat is virtually nonexistent and there's a sharp angle on the rifling, but I don't have a leading issue. I've got some inconsistent velocites and perhaps not great accuracy, but at this point I don't know if that's me and iron sights, the gun, which is not known for great accuracy, or the load. Need to tinker with it some more. And one of the things I want to play with is the core diameter. When I get some more time on a lathe, with proper material, I'll make a couple push-through dies for experimentation.

I'm a noob at all this cast/pp stuff, I'm trying to approach this from a few directions, but I'll take the time to ferret it out.

303Guy I'll try the wad over filler then.

[McFred]

Last weekend I made a .352" sizer die and loaded up some more PPCBs.

I dropped 40gr of H414 and added 2.5gr of CoW and a .020" cereal box wad under the bullet at the beginning of the neck and I got consistent velocities (1951fps avg, 6fps stdev) which is enough oomph for me. Unfortunately they're not very accurate, perhaps because the patch is still not coming off. The bullet noses are taking a beating in the magazine from recoil and feeding through the 'ramp' at the breech too. I suspect it's not helping accuracy, but shouldn't hurt it too badly either.

The patch width is now an 1/8" shorter and wrapped farther down the ogive; I also cut patches across the grain so there's less shrink into the grooves. At least there's no leading in the bore and the 40gr of H414's burning pretty clean. I find it pretty surprising how springy the CoW filler is. I can compress it by hand and it rebounds .020" or more.

The card wad's helping protect the base too so that's good. There's light indentations from the patch's tail but no peening.

This tracing paper might be better suited to slab-sided bullets where it can't get stuck in the lube grooves. I'll see about making another, smaller bullet sizing die and try a thicker copy paper that'll tear easier to get the size back up.

One last observation, despite low pressure the brass' rims are getting stretched on extraction too. The chamber's not very smooth, so before I shoot it any more I think I'll take a little 400 grit to it to see if it smooths out and lets the brass extract easier.

Back to the drawing board.