EAA witness 45 acp worth owning?

[enfieldphile]

This! -->

I have the Witness Match in .45 ACP very nice weapon and fits my hands perfectly. Very accurate.

Attachment 104733

The .45 Match handles cast very well! But it will not feel the H&G 68. Use a TC or RN.
I also have one of the uber-rare 9mm models made for Israel

[Lonegun1894]

I used to have a .45 Compact, and it fed anything, including A LOT of the Lee 200gr SWCs. It was always accurate and reliable. Financial issues hit and it went to live with a good friend of mine, but I would like to get it back someday if he gets tired of playing with it.

[ReloaderFred]

clownbear69,

I haven't shot a round of factory ammunition in about 10 years, but all my 10mm loads are full boat, with either 180 gr. or 200 gr. bullets. I take it from your post that you don't own one, and haven't had to deal with EAA's service, so don't have any firsthand knowledge. Is that correct?

I've bought some barrels for conversions from EAA, and there weren't any problems with those transactions. For the most part, I do my own work on my guns, or use a local gunsmith whom I trust. I've never had a problem with any of my Witnesses I couldn't fix myself, and like I pointed out, I've got a few.

The 10mm Witnesses tend to throw the brass into the next zip code, but there is a modification that can be done to the ejector which brings them back home. The 10mm is snappy. I just wish my two Colt Delta Elites were built as well as my Witnesses, which were half the price of the Colts...

Hope this helps.

Fred

Out of curiosity what kind of 10mm are you using for you loads for your witness? Out of the problems ive read about (many of them) none of them had problems shoting weak 10mm loads but when they are using like Underwood Ammo that's when they see the problems. I remember one had their frame cracked and they told them he voided the warranty because he used undewood ammo. They said it was considered a +P even though Underwood is in SAAMI spec.

[crazy mark]

I have a 45 compact model and have nothing bad to say about it. Still find factory mags for it also.

[6bg6ga]

And typically you never need to the only reason why its been bad is on the 10mm when their frames and slides break with it not being used much doesn't help

From what I have been able to dig up there do seem to be problems. These problems seem to stem from used guns instead of one owner guns.

I don't take some of the info to heart because of the possibility of sheer stupidity from some owners. I have also seen battered 1911 colts in which a know it all owner changed the spring to a lighter one trying to make the gun function better.

Reloaderfred seems to have a handle on the reliability of the gun in that he owns a number of them and I trust his judgement. After following his posts for a number of years it would seem that he tells it like it is. If they were junk he would say so. The simple fact that he owns a number of them has me wanting to sell my Sig Tac Pak and purchase more of the Tanfoglio product.

[6bg6ga]

My thoughts are this.... I will purchase another EAA Witness in what ever caliber I can find. I will check the recoil spring to see if it has been lightened or simply replace it to take care of the maintenance factor. If this Witness shoots as good as it feels I will purchase more of them and possibly be their newest convert.

Guns break for a reason... change the spring to a lighter one and batter and crack the frame and or slide. This happens with ANY semi-automatic I have seen. I've seen new Delta 10mm crack because of an owner that should have left it alone. An owner that thought that he knew more than engineers do by replacing the spring thinking it would end the stove piping when the real problem was his limp wrist hold.

[clownbear69]

clownbear69,

I haven't shot a round of factory ammunition in about 10 years, but all my 10mm loads are full boat, with either 180 gr. or 200 gr. bullets. I take it from your post that you don't own one, and haven't had to deal with EAA's service, so don't have any firsthand knowledge. Is that correct?

I've bought some barrels for conversions from EAA, and there weren't any problems with those transactions. For the most part, I do my own work on my guns, or use a local gunsmith whom I trust. I've never had a problem with any of my Witnesses I couldn't fix myself, and like I pointed out, I've got a few.

The 10mm Witnesses tend to throw the brass into the next zip code, but there is a modification that can be done to the ejector which brings them back home. The 10mm is snappy. I just wish my two Colt Delta Elites were built as well as my Witnesses, which were half the price of the Colts...

Hope this helps.

Fred

Yes you are correct I don't own one and that's why I have been on the fence about getting one (specially a 10mm) through my research on it. I might have to give it another go. Im a 10mm junky and when I read peoples frames cracking from "real" 10mm loads it spooks ya. And I wanted one to not shoot my Delta Elite as much. I might have to make the gamble.

I will be PMing you to not continue to derail the OPs thread (sorry about that)

Thanks

[ReloaderFred]

PM's replied to.

6bg6ba,

I would very highly recommend a Witness in .38 Super. I've got several, and they're all very accurate, but the most accurate of the bunch is a recently purchased Witness Elite Match in .38 Super. It's probably the most accurate semi-auto pistol I own, and I've got a few. Once I got it dialed in, I was shooting at the staples holding the target at 25 yards, and actually hit them a couple of times. This was from sandbags of course, since I'm not as steady as I was 40 years ago.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[donhuff]

6bg6ba,

The pictures you posted show that your gun has the full thickness slide that has not given any problems . The slides that have cracked, were the newer ones that have been cut/contoured to decrease the weight a little. Google eaa witness cracked slides, images, and you can see the difference between your slide, and there's.
I have a elite match in 10mm and it is easily the most accurate semi auto I have owned, right out of the box. Heavy as a boat anchor, i guess because it's made out of STEEL! And I like that.

[donhuff]

ReloadedFred,

I cut back my ejector some, but it still throws the brass bout 25 feet or more. I also have a 22 lb spring in it.
Do you have the details on how much to cut the ejector, or whatever is involved it getting the brass to drop closer? I lose about 10% of my brass every time I shoot that thing.


I have the dies, and have 200 rounds of 38 super ammo loaded up and waiting, until I can find a elite match in that caliber.

[ReloaderFred]

donhuff,

Here is a picture of how to do it:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/557/394945_Super_Eject4.jpg

Hope this helps.

Fred

[6bg6ga]

6bg6ba,

The pictures you posted show that your gun has the full thickness slide that has not given any problems . The slides that have cracked, were the newer ones that have been cut/contoured to decrease the weight a little. Google eaa witness cracked slides, images, and you can see the difference between your slide, and there's.
I have a elite match in 10mm and it is easily the most accurate semi auto I have owned, right out of the box. Heavy as a boat anchor, i guess because it's made out of STEEL! And I like that.

I'm still thinking that the problem is a weak spring. One thing I always do is check the spring in a device that tells me how many lbs it takes to compress the spring. Secondly, I put prussian blue on the parts that contact and examine them after firing several rounds. The damage seems to me to be inline with the damage that one would suffer with a 1911 with a weak spring. Maybe the quality of the factory spring is in question and this is something that one should keep an eye on. I would bet that with a good aftermarket spring there would be no cracking of the slide.

[6bg6ga]

After runing thru another bunch of links and information I am confident that the slide isn't the problem but rather poor springs that are losing their strength. The slide contoured one is almost the exact same design on the top as my Sig Tac Pac. It would seem that those involved with cracked slides have simply used the gun as purchased and most of them are used so a good evaluation cannot be made with this control group in my opinion.

I would suggest that ANY purchased EAA should be subject to automatic spring replacement before being shot as this would be a good control group in which to evaluate a possible problem associiated with a contoured slide.

After reading thru the way the factory is handling the replacement of the slide assemblies I would suggest to them that they are possibly in line for legal action in the event that the slide does completely come apart. The fact that the slides are cracking should shed light on the fact that the frame is being battered thus engineering should be pointed to this problem.

[donhuff]

Thanks Fred,
For the picture link. I have seen this before, and it is where I got the info to trim mine back some. Trimming and a Wolff 22lb spring helped a little, but it would be nice to have them drop within 10 feet instead of 30+ feet. Maybe I should trim it a little more and see what happens.

[ReloaderFred]

The 10mm is a really snappy round, which is why some makers of 1911's won't build them in this caliber. I talked to the reps at Rock River Arms at the SHOT Show a couple of years ago about building me one, and their answer was, "no way!". They said they had looked at doing it, but overcoming the speed of the slide was the problem and they just didn't believe they could build one that would hold up. They pointed to the fact that Colt had problems with the Delta Elite as one of the reasons they wouldn't attempt it.

Getting the 10mm brass to land at your feet may not be feasible. I just figure when I shoot one of my 10's, I'm going to have to chase brass. It's the same with my 9x25 Dillon 1911. The brass flies and people duck, so I usually try to pick a time, or position, where I don't have to worry about other people on the range. They always complain about the crack of the 10mm and 9x25 anyway........

Hope this helps.

Fred

[snowwolfe]

I bought a Witness Match in 10mm and that thing is a tank. Very well built, handles the recoil well and so far no failures to feed or eject. More accurate than I am. Only complaint is it could use better sights but that's a nit pick. I would absolutely buy more of the same brand if I was in the market.

[Pinsnscrews]

I purchased a used Witness Full Size in .45acp/.22LR kit a couple of years ago. At the advice of the shop, I bought replacement recoil springs before taking it shooting. After firing a couple of boxes of standard .45acp, I loaded up a mag of Magtech Golden Guardian 225gr +P. First round cracked the slide and jammed the gun.






Replacement slide is the Long Barrel Conversion. Top slide is the cracked one, bottom is the replacement. Notice the relief cut on the original slide at the ejection port where the crack is located, notice no such relief cut on the replacement slide.



Replacement is on the left. Notice the size difference of the ejection port.


Replacement is on the bottom. Again, notice the size difference of the ejection port. You can also see the deeper relief cut on the cracked slide on the opposite side of the ejection port. The replacement slide had a shallower relief cut that ran full height of the slide, rather than deep and short.


Once the new slide arrived, I had read all the bad press about the spring issue at that point. So I ordered a heavier set from Wolff Gunsprings (www.gunsprings.com). After it arrived, I never had an issue again. Swallowed the Magtech and the Buffalo Bore with no further problems. The only reason I sold it was due to the grip not fitting the wife's hand. I will not make that mistake again, and have been looking to replace it. The next one I buy, I will do the same thing, and replace the springs with those from Wolff. I will also say that the Long Slide conversion was money well spent.

As to the customer service. Both experiences were good. There was a delay in getting the replacement barrel and slide, BUT, I can't blame them for a Hurricane. They had it shipped out with in 24hrs of the Hurricane being over. Why do I make note of that you might ask? I had other products coming from other vendors in the same area of Florida at the same time. Those vendors were delayed up to 2 weeks before shipment.

[clownbear69]

There is also one thing to note, and this is based out of my personal belief and opinion.

One thing to consider is the magazine count. To me its pointless of getting .45 ACP double stack 10 round gun. Its ironic among all of the witness firearms all the other calibers are on par with having the higher capacity but for some reason .45 ACP only gets 10. When I look at it if the most I can get is 10 rounds I might as well get a 1911. Mags are available and many of the times cheaper. Now mec-gar does make the witness magazines so unsure if the +2 base pad that they make and will work. Nonetheless if it doesn't bother you look at http://www.gregcotellc.com/cart/index.php They sell the witness mags at the best price with pretty awesome shipping (flat rate). (I do not work for this company whatsoever just a customer)

Another thing to consider is holsters. Theres not many but you can find it. But you may not get exactly what you want.

Just a couple of things to consider if you want this more than just a range toy

[6bg6ga]

There is also one thing to note, and this is based out of my personal belief and opinion.

One thing to consider is the magazine count. To me its pointless of getting .45 ACP double stack 10 round gun. Its ironic among all of the witness firearms all the other calibers are on par with having the higher capacity but for some reason .45 ACP only gets 10. When I look at it if the most I can get is 10 rounds I might as well get a 1911. Mags are available and many of the times cheaper. Now mec-gar does make the witness magazines so unsure if the +2 base pad that they make and will work. Nonetheless if it doesn't bother you look at http://www.gregcotellc.com/cart/index.php They sell the witness mags at the best price with pretty awesome shipping (flat rate). (I do not work for this company whatsoever just a customer)

Another thing to consider is holsters. Theres not many but you can find it. But you may not get exactly what you want.

Just a couple of things to consider if you want this more than just a range toy

I have owned a number of 1911's over the years and the last thing I am concerned about it the quantity of rounds it can hold. Why, you ask? Well, its like this... I shoot generally in the high 90's for ten shots at 30 yards which I consider to probably be better than average. This means I can hit what I aim at either slow or fast fire. Why on God's earth do I need more than 7 or 10 rounds? Aim I going to get into a fire fight at the local grocery store when checking out? That is what a second magazine is for.

Mags? Mine hold 10 shots and not double stacked and I don't care for the double stacked mags and If I wanted more capacity I would buy a Glock but then I don't want a Glock in 45acp...too bulky for my hand but some like them.

Holsters... If I cannot find what I want in Galco or another manufacturer I will have one custom made to my specifications.

Springs and frame cracking....

I've looked over the factory offered springs and they have me holding my breath. Simply too light. Maybe I'm wrong and I will test my theory but I'm making the assumption that too light a spring = frame crack. My Sig Tac Pac slide is relieved the same as the pictures of the EAA Witness slides that have cracked but my Sig has a lot more spring tension. It is my assumption that any slide will batter and crack if the speed of the slide is fast and the spring doesn't allow enough tension to slow it down.

My suggestion to those posting on this thread without ANY personal experience shooting the EAA Witness or EAA product is to find someone that owns one and shoot it before judging the gun sight un seen.

[clownbear69]

Why on God's earth do I need more than 7 or 10 rounds? Aim I going to get into a fire fight at the local grocery store when checking out? That is what a second magazine is for.

Remember its arguments like this that led to AWB. The whole point of double stacking anything was to add more. They do it with the 9mm and the .40 S&W yet its rare for any manufactures to add more than 10 rounds to .45 acp. To me its pointless of getting any double stack .45 ACP that holds the same to a single stack. Single stacks (ie 1911) have the cost much cheaper making at least in the magazine aspect more desirable.

Second to answer your question why would you want more, 3 gun. Less reloads equals better time. All that mec-gar needs to do is at the extension plate to add at least 2 rounds to make it worth it to look at (a 14 rounder option would be more desirable for me)

Remember there are other firearms that are easier to hold than the Glock 21 and still have the capacity. Examples P14-45 (Double stack 1911 with 14 rounds and that's the standard) Sig 227 (14 rounds are the extended) M&P45 (14 rounds extended mag) Point is theres plenty of .45 mags that have the ability to have more.

As I stated in my post you quoted, This based on my personal belief and opinion. It had nothing to do with function. But it is things that should be looked at depending on what you plan on using it for. (If I lived in a non free state with 10 round limits the Witness .45 ACP would be on my radar just because the cost of the firearm and option of a light rail. I would have to do extensive testing in comparison to a comparable price 1911 but you get my point)