ES coating takes too long and is too much of a mess

[Beagle333]

Unless you need bullets that do not smoke, pretty bullets, bullets that are coated to meet indoor range restrictions on lubed bullets, or are making defensive bullets (where lube migration into the powder is a concern), I see no reason to coat.

I coat so I can push softer lead faster than I could before. I can take range scrap to speeds that required clip-on wheel weights before. Range scrap is easier to find, cheaper, and renewable.
And..... I like the colors. I could care less about the smoke. I shoot BP pistols often, just for the smoke!

For speed, you can't beat a Star though. I still use regular lubes sometimes. It is not always convenient to spray or even shake-n-bake when I want some boolits prepped fast, and the Star is fast.

[dverna]

kryo
You will not get leading with traditional lubes if you size the bullets correctly and use a good lube for the speed of your bullets. We actually used lead bullets for decades without leading - LOL.

Unless speed is really important, and most people do not shoot that much, a Star is overkill - but if speed is your goal a Star is the answer.

If I was starting out, it would make sense to look at either Hi-Tek or BBDTPC. They both work and are reasonably fast. If you want more production - get the Star. You will still use the other methods for small runs of bullets you do not shoot a lot.

I have a Star and two Lyman 45's and intend to try BBDTPC. For me, the attraction for PC is no possibility of lube bleed into the powder. For carry ammunition, that is an advantage.

Don Verna

[kryogen]

well technically, carry ammunition is never shot, so why not just buy a box of 50 rounds of defensive ammo and be good for a lifetime?

Or, what I do for ammo that must work, I just buy hornady jacketed bullets.... since they are never shot, they will still be there in a few years when I will shoot those at the range and make new ones...

[dverna]

Kryo,

I would never trust my life to a load that has not been proven. I carry factory ammo in a small Kahr and put 200 rounds through it to confirm reliable function. At over $1 a shot for the good stuff, it is an expensive test. And if you get any issues, you have to repeat the function test with another brand of ammo.

For $200, I can buy a mold and produce a lot of carry ammo. I do not buy the argument that a DA has much chance proving that reloads and cast bullets are some type of "killer" ammo. (They MUST prove it - not just allude to it. And it is not difficult to prove cast loads are no more lethal) No one, has ever been able to provide one instance where this has happened. It is an old wives tale.

There is a benefit in using the same ammo for practice as you carry. By shooting 1000's of rounds, you KNOW it works. Sometimes just changing seating depth by .025 can affect reliability. And it takes a lot of rounds to evaluate.

Don Verna

[kryogen]

getting off topic.

Btw, I have just noticed that I get heavy leading in ALL my PC firearms.

Even the 38 special with reduced target loads has leaded like hell.

I dont get lead "chunks", but I get a very thin coating of gray on the lands, and in the corners of the grooves, etc.

Epic fail of my PC so far... leads in 2 9mm (even with .358), and reduced loads, and leads in my S&W 357 revolver with reduced 38 loads.

Is the powder that I have just not good for bullets or what? I cant get it to not lead. Then it takes me 2000 gazillions soaks and strokes to remove.

MIDNIGHT BLACK

A HIGH GLOSS POWDER THIS POLYESTER TGIC BLACK HAS BECOME THE GO TO BLACK FOR CUSTOM COATERS.

CURE SCHEDULE IS 380 F FOR 15 MIN (PMT)
THEORETICAL COVERAGE @ 1MIL IS 141.4 SQ FT per POUND
MIL THICKNESS 2-3 MILS

[bangerjim]

I have always used HF powders (red, yellow,white, and the long-bemoaned matte black) all with absolutely no leading. I bake 400F for 10 min (preheated oven - timing starts after the powder turns shiny in the oven). All pass the hammer test to 1/4" thick. I shoot in 223, 38, 40, and 45. Never >2,000fps (estimated) I don't have a chronograph.

I think you will hear similar reports back from many on here just like me.

It could be the powder or your baking time/temp or the speeds you are pushing?

I suggest you go to HF and get a bottle of red and try it. Color makes no difference to me.....performance is key. Or just stay with grease. You know it leads to certain degrees.

banger

[kryogen]

Maybe it's just pc residue in barrel? I will try some gasket remover. does it remove bluing?

or maybe it's not leading I see, maybe I am just parano? I scrubbed my glock and soaked all night and I still see streaks. Maybe it's just the bluing that is gone and it looks more grayish than black?

and in the stainless revolver, I see some grayish black lines, but maybe it's just carbon on pc residue or whatever? with a light from one end, all 3 barrels look clean. when I shine the light just at the muzzle end, almost perpendicular to surface, I see the streaks.

Maybe I am just parano and see lead where there is no lead?

[ebner glocken]

If you're worried about PC residue swab out the barrel with an acetone soaked patch. If it's colored with your PC you have residue. Another thing, if your automatic barrel is totally leaded as you describe you really don't have to give it "2000 gazzillion strokes". A cheap harbor freight ultrasonic cleaner will make your life MUCH easier. Plenty of info out there on ultrasonic cleaning no need to go more in depth here.

Banger, I've read MANY of your post and am usually impressed with what you do. I find it truly amazing you have done all of this w/o aid of a chronograph. We don't have to build a pendulum type anymore these new electronic gizmos are pretty good and reasonably priced now days. It's a staple in my range gear when testing IMHO. Cudos if you have done all of this w/o the aide of one.

Ebner

[bangerjim]

Ebner...........Where I shoot they do not allow them. It is inside and from what I have read about a lot of the electronic ones, they do not like fluorescent lights that well. Still, I can judge "good enough for government work" approximately how long it takes a boolit to hit the target out there after it goes bang. Not as good as you guys who shoot in the boonies and can use chronos, but I cannot use one. And my outside sessions are very few and far between, especially now that the 100's are setting in for the summer! If I could use one every time I shoot, I would have the bestest, most expensivest one I could find.

Accuracy, grouping, lack of leading, ease of coating, ease of cleaning, and just plain fun are far more critical to me that "how fast did it go.....how fast did it go". Most of my stuff stays in the subsonic range and is for plinking target fun anyway. I am not competitive shooting or trying to kill anything or using HP's to blow meat apart. I load 223's and 30-06's with full data (~85%) FMJ loads (no PC) for anything I need to be fast.


Agree.........Kyrogen........Swab with acetone. That is why I suggested getting some red. That color is unique to "gun residues" and will definitely show up as anything left behind with an acetone swab. #9 will not do a good job with PC if there is any there.

Good luck in finding your "gremlin"!

banger

[kryogen]

I have an US cleaner, how am I supposed to remove leading with it?

If you're worried about PC residue swab out the barrel with an acetone soaked patch. If it's colored with your PC you have residue. Another thing, if your automatic barrel is totally leaded as you describe you really don't have to give it "2000 gazzillion strokes". A cheap harbor freight ultrasonic cleaner will make your life MUCH easier. Plenty of info out there on ultrasonic cleaning no need to go more in depth here.

Banger, I've read MANY of your post and am usually impressed with what you do. I find it truly amazing you have done all of this w/o aid of a chronograph. We don't have to build a pendulum type anymore these new electronic gizmos are pretty good and reasonably priced now days. It's a staple in my range gear when testing IMHO. Cudos if you have done all of this w/o the aide of one.

Ebner

[kryogen]

I tested acetone. Got a tiny bit of color out of the barrels but nothing major.

Tried the gasket remover for pc residues, let it act 15 min, tight patch, almost nothing.

There is something I find strange. If I brush the barrel with a bronze brush, then patch, it's always black on the patch. Is it the bronze patch residues? Why is it always black?

I would say that all 3 barrels look squeaky clean now. I wonder if I am trying too hard looking for color inside the barrel.

They also soaked overnight in wipe out, nothing but a minor bit of blue.

Maybe I am just scrubbing too hard and the bronze brush is making the black goop?

[bangerjim]

We are going to rename you Mr Clean!!!!!! HA.........HA!

banger

[kryogen]

why is it black when I brush?

[Maximumbob54]

Can you post pics of what it looks like when you push a clean white patch through? I'm thinking this us much ado about nothing but perhaps your finish isn't fully cured for some reason and is coming off in the bore. I know when I first started with coated bullets I had red in the bore after cleaning and as soon as I bought an oven thermometer instead of trusting what I set the dial at it helped right away. I thought it was getting to 400 degrees but it was really only getting to about 350ish and then would go way over 400 for a minute and go right back down. A new oven helped this problem. The first one I treid was one of the little ones and when I bought the next regular sized model up for whatever reason it just works better.

[kryogen]

I have a convection oven with a thermocouple on a PID. Temp is ok.

Acetone and gasket remover dont really remove residue, so its probably not pc residue.

Patch is clean when I just patch. If I brush, then patch, it's black. black as in black.

[tiger762]

What I do is take a plastic ammo tray and load it with cast bullets nose down. Then, place the toaster oven's tray over the ammo tray. Then carefully invert the two, shaking the bullets until they are all uniformly spaced and standing up. I've been using the same sheet of NS aluminum foil since forever. I clamp the ground clip onto the tray and hose them down with whatever color I fancy. Using an Eastwood DG-10. You will read of those who fret over making good electrical contact. Just remember, it's 10,000+ volts for God's sakes and very low current. It WILL make contact through layers of powder coat. So the bullets are always standing up on the previous run's PC. The alligator clip can go anywhere.

The reason I am saying this is because I too at first looked at this as something that required a lot of prep before each batch. Then, I just started messing around with it and realized some of the **** I read on the Internet is just regurgitated horse-hockey.

If it's one thing I suggest strongly. Don't be stingy with the powder. Don't worry about the powder that is lost to the air. I weighed the hopper before and after spraying 200 rounds. It consumed 0.2 OUNCES of silver vein. You'll read people making reclaim booths and what-not. Maybe it's to be "cheap", maybe it's to not get powder in the household pet's fur. Just be liberal with it at first, out in the driveway. Never let cast bullets get all oxidized or you'll have problems with coverage. Baking in a toaster oven at 275 F for ten minutes is how I roll...

[Handloader109]

One thing that I have found is that the different pc brands /colors coat way differently. Red from HF works pretty well the day I pull a spoonful from the closed container. If any is left in plastic coating container (lid on, not entirely airtight) for a day or two, the next boolits do not coat well. The black I have from a 'Bay vendor covers extremely well and if I don't tap to remove some excess I overcoat.

[kryogen]

I use espc, it coats fine.... it still leads.

[Beagle333]

I can't figure it out. I know it varies from gun to gun. I got a friend that shot some of my boolits and he put some .358s through a Taurus .357 poly protector and it leaded up badly at 950 fps.
So he sized em down to .356 and ran 100 of em through his 9x19 at 1150 fps as fast as he could load and they left it shiny inside. Odd, I thought.

[popper]

sized em down to .356 and ran 100 of em through his 9x19 at 1150 fps as fast as he could load and they left it shiny inside

Normal. My 9 did the same , 358 leaded, 357 didn't. Chamber/throat/leade design. My PX4 leaded with Recluse, stopped when PCd. Go figure.