Keep moose happy thread

[cbrick]

It is not adequate for anything under 50% WW in the WW/Pb alloy.

Actually that's true. I did a Sb/BHN test some years back, my normal alloy that ran 3% Sb or just barely under that took 3-4 days to reach the 18 BHN goal via convection oven heat treating. I ran a test with the Sb about half of that and didn't expect it to reach 18 but it did. The difference in the two alloys was that the lower Sb alloy took three weeks to reach 18 BHN.

There has been a lot of XrF testing done and posted on the forum lately, one of these threads is a sticky & they both should be. Weights from both coasts and spanning several years have been tested and the consistency has really amazed me. Seems the lowly WW is much more consistent than I ever thought they would be. From this testing I'd think it safe to assume clip-on weights will contain about 2 3/4% Sb and one half of one percent Sn. Also from this XrF testing that could effect heat treating results and the time curve is that As comes up in some of the tests and none in other tests. I've always tried to balance the Sb/Sn and add 2% Sn by weight to my clip-on weights and it now seems that my "assumption" of 2% Sn was correct.

Rick

[cbrick]

Harry M. Pope, the maker of superlative barrels who died about 60 years ago, made a statement at a match, late in his life, while talking to a friend. He said "very few people can make a bullet worth shooting". Learn to make consistent boolits first, then learn what different alloying constituents do and then the rest is a whole lot easier.

I think Mr. Pope was right.

One of the things that make a quality boolit is: I am of the school of thought that says the base of the boolit steers the boolit. If the base isn't perfect it's no better than trying to shoot the sprues. My first boolit inspection is upon opening the sprue plate before opening the mold. There is no better time to vividly see the boolit base, if any in that pour are anything less than perfect it goes into the sprue pile. A complete/full/square base all the way around each boolit. One way to ensure a good base is to pour a very generous sprue puddle, keep pouring after the cavity is filled and the alloy inside the mold is freezing. This is also the step towards another aspect of good bases, keep the sprue plate hot. Much over looked with a lot of casters is the sprue plate temp and it is every bit as important as mold temp. The sprue plate doesn't have the mass the blocks do and it spends time sticking out in the air, it cools rapidly compared to the blocks and a cool sprue plate makes perfect bases all the more difficult.

Rick

[freebullet]

Inconsistent bases is the number one flaw I found while weight/visual sorting last night. Some of the variances is so subtle you don't even see it unless handling each boolit. It accounted most toward the nearly 2gr difference I found in the lot of boolits.

[btroj]

Ok. Cast 194 bullets and rejected 74 of them. Those were found to be visually unacceptable.

What do you guys say about these. I indicated the flaws I saw and numbered them for easier identification.

Which ones would you reject?





Now to weigh sort the remainder.

[nekshot]

I have been convicted over base prep after reading about Bens tool from Buckshot. I made a jig this winter foe each of my boolits to lay in nose first at proper depth and then I gently stoke a fine file across the jig and it leaves a perfect square base every time and all the exact same length, still need to weigh and sort. Today I thought I had it going my way with a early 94 ae in 30-30 with a 16 inch twist(measured it 6 times) shooting a saeco 150, 32 to 34 gr 2700 and then I switched to my home made checks and presto a shot went 3 inches out of 1 inch groub at 80 yards. More attention to my home made checks for sure. I have a good fit with chamber and last fall I decided to start at the back of boolit and work front, see if that makes a differant. Only God knows how hard I tried to get it right from the front of boolit back!

[nekshot]

concernig which boolits I would use, for me only 1. I simply get weird when it gets to boolits. They must be perfect.

[btroj]

First off, the 9 bullets in the photo were all but one in the major weight ranges or the keepers. Tells me those flaws don't cause much weight loss. Does the void still matter? I don't know. Talk to me.

I sorted by weight and kept 3 weight groupings. They were 188.1 to 189.3, 188.4 to 188.6, and 188.7 to 189.9.

Of the rejected ones the max weight was 189.8 and the lightest was 186.5

I had 29 from 188.1 to 188.3
I had 31 from 188.4 to 188.6
I had 15 from 189.7 to 188.9

I did reject around 5 to 7 the that weighed 188.0

What to do with the keepers? Do I keep them in separate weight groups? Do I combine the two lower weight groups?

I had a measly 38.6 percent keeper rate out of the initial 194 bullets. My technique needs some major work. I need to get the mould hotter to start and keep a better rhythm going. I also need to be better at pouring straight into the cavity as I am using a bottom pour. I did lose a few from inadequate sprue puddle and subsequent flaws in the base.

[cbrick]

Brad, I'm really not trying to be a smart a*s and I'm not trying to put you down but . . . I wouldn't keep a single one of those. Your wanting higher velocity groups, that ain't gonna do it.

Describe your casting method, how are you going about it. Also describe your alloy, pot temp, flux and how your going about fluxing.

I am not trying to show off I'm trying to help you, you are looking for this.



As a side note, this boolit was a total failure. It is the SAECO 264 140 gr 6.5mm meant for around 2200 fps in a tack driving custom built Shilen Super match barrel 15" XP. SAECO's bore riding nose doesn't, nose is at best a sloppy fit in the bore and groups were dismal. It casts a beautiful boolit but that doesn't mean squat if it doesn't fit and this one doesn't.

Rick

[btroj]

Not being a smart alek at all, I want, and need, the criticism to get better.

I am using a 22 pound RCBS. I don't have a PID or a thermometer. Alloy is a mix of range scrap and some harder mystery alloy I was using for 9 mm plinking ammo. It heat treats to 18 BHn so it isn't over hard or so. I did add 1/2 pound of 30% body solder I have kicking around. I wasn't overly picky about the alloy at this time as I was more interested in seeing what the weight consistency would be and getting a new mould broken in. Pot is set at 750 right now, if I go much lower, like to 700, it tends to freeze up the spout. That is how the pot is marked, the actual temp is likely not those numbers.

I flux with a fluff of hamster bedding. The amount is around the size of a golf ball. I do this once the lead is fully melter and has had a few minutes to equalize in temp. I stir the pot well before fluxing. Bedding is placed on top of melt and left for about 15 seconds to make sure it is dry. I then use a spoon to dribble lead thru the bedding while it begins to char. Once it begins to char well I stir the pot well trying to get a somewhat verticle flow going to bring stuff from the bottom of the pot. I then ignite the bedding and stir more as it burns. After it has gone out I stir for another 15 seconds or so and remove the charred remnants from the surface of the melt. Dusting all this I try not to get too much wood or ash below the surface of the melt as I have had problems with it getting onto the bottom of the pot and causing dribbles and leaks.

I use the pot as a bottom pour. I make every effort to get the stream directly into the cavity and leave 3/8 inch or so sprue puddle. I then remove from under the pot and rest the mould tipped up on my bench in front of a small fan. I count 5 seconds from end of pour into second cavity to cutting sprue. I then dump bullets and repeat.

I find that once I get going the sprue takes 3 to seconds to harden and flash over.

I do not stop and gawk at bullets or anything else. I do what I can to maintain a good rhythm.

As this was a new mould I did have a little trouble initially with oil in the cavities. I thought I had washed it well but apparently not. I cast did 20 mould fills with a dumping of the bullets to get the mould to temp and remove the last of the oil.

Oh, the mould is an Accurate 2 cav brass 31-190X. Spec'd to drop a 311 bullet at 190 gr in 50-50 WW/Pb.

Any suggestions are welcome.

[freebullet]

Spray the cavities out with solvent. Clean the pot by scraping all the gunk from the sides and bottom, and the spigot. I'm gunna wind up getting a thermometer you may need one too..

I sorted 350+ lee 312-155 into 6 categories.
1. 154-154.5 these are getting checked for upto 2200fps testing
2. 154.6 naked for sub test
3. 154.7-155.3 getting checked also for 2200 test
4. 155.4 naked for sub test
5. 155.5-156 getting checked too for 2200 test
6. Any over or under or with any visual defect. These will get checked and used as short range plinkers in the 1400-1800 fps range. ALL of my cast loads have been at or under 1900fps.

[45 2.1]

Which ones would you reject?

None of those are suitable for really good HV groups.

[swheeler]

Ok. Cast 194 bullets and rejected 74 of them. Those were found to be visually unacceptable.

What do you guys say about these. I indicated the flaws I saw and numbered them for easier identification.

Which ones would you reject?





Now to weigh sort the remainder.

All 1-9

[btroj]

I did reject them all. I was looking to see of others culled bullets with those types of flaws.

[Love Life]

Those are the obvious culls. Get you one of those big magnifying glasses. You know, I've been wondering a set of the cabine tree locking handles would be a worthwhile addition to this quest.

[geargnasher]

That brass sucks a lot of heat, and always seems to cast better boolits after two or three sessions.

This is clippy weights plus one percent tin from the first session, run at the ragged edge of too hot on the mould and alloy both, alloy was maintained at 725 +/- 5 degrees, four steady pours per minute. Took 20 minutes in the mould oven at 400F to get it up to speed from room temperature before casting. I wiped the frost off the throat slugs with a dry rag, the as-cast boolit is, as cast, and the pic makes it look like it has a rounded base band and dip in the edge of the base, but it doesn't.



Gear

[Mooseman]

I may get hammered for this , but , I recommend changing flux. I tried the sawdust / bedding stuff and it was the biggest mess in my pot I ever had to deal with. I went back to using Rosin Solder paste Flux (Kester Brand) as it allows my alloys to fuse, it doesn't flare up in flame , and it brings any impurities right to the top for easy removal and it only takes a small amount on a hardwood dowel stirred in to do the job. My pot stays clean and so does my lead.
Second , On large boolits , I pressure cast with my bottom pour pots. Most of mine are larger than 30 cal, but it works to form Beautiful Boolits and Ballsfrom .429 up to 69 cal. with no voids when up to temp and in my rhythm.
I learned Casting in 1973 so I could learn reloading because I had to have boolits to load first..
Happy , Happy , Happy !!! (so far)
Rich

[swheeler]

From what I see I'd say you need to flux better, a lot better from the inclusions present. The obvious wrinkles are from a cold mold, clean it real good and preheat it before you try again. And you asked "which one would you reject" All 1-9 is my answer.

[btroj]

Gear, I personally think ALL moulds do better after a few sessions.

I think more heat would help. I got a few rejects with obvious rounded bands.

The fluxing method will likely change. I need to get some alloy mixed up for this thing. Looking to make a few hundred pounds to set aside for this one rifle. Helps keep it consistent that way.

Thanks for the input guys.

[cbrick]

Why don't you try this, while those SAECO boolits in the above pic were bottom poured why don't you get a Rowell #2 ladle and ladle them, I get far fewer rejects that way. Ladle pouring is slower but your not trying to shoot fast groups your trying to shoot good groups. Even though ladling is slower with fewer rejects it's not really much slower. When ladle casting hold the mold over the pot and fill each cavity and keep pouring, let the alloy flow over the mold back into the pot. Don't look at this as pouring lead, your pouring heat, your keeping the sprue plate and top of the mold to temperature. No, it won't stick to a properly heated mold, a gloved hand will brush it right off.

The numbers on the RCBS thermostat are for reference only, it does not correlate to any given temp or least mine sure doesn't. In addition, the lower the alloy in the pot gets the higher the pot temp, just the nature of an electric pot. If you can't pop for a PID right now (recommended) at the least get a thermometer, run the pot at 700-725. Pre-heat the mold on a hot plate to 400-425 for at least the time it takes the casting pot to get to temp. Turn the mold over on the hot plate to heat up the sprue plate and top of the mold for the last several minutes of pre-heating. Use an oven (cover) on the hot plate.



Your fluxing sounds ok except it does no good to pour the alloy through the wood chips, it's after it burns that it does the fluxing. The wood will turn to carbon and carbon is what does the fluxing, it takes time to properly flux a pot. Just doing it a little only fluxes a little. Oils and waxes will not flux the alloy simply because they are not fluxes, sawdust is a flux. Folks that post what a mess sawdust is is baffling to me, I don't know what they are doing because for me it's the neatest, cleanest fluxing I've ever done and it leaves your pot and tools much cleaner. You cannot get the sawdust under the melt, the density of lead and sawdust prevents it. If you stir with a wooden stick (I don't) you could bring ash & particles under the melt.

I would recommend that by the time your new rifle shows up that you get a known alloy. Range scrap and other unknowns are just fine for most pistols and plinking loads but your stated goal is higher velocity grouping. Will be much easier to know what your working with and repeatable next time and the next time.

Your boolit #8 is a good example of the mold too cool. The first alloy in the mold starts to freeze at that spot and then more molten alloy flows around it.

Rick

[btroj]

Ok, my mould was obviously way too cold. Way, way cold. Lesson learned.

I need to invest in a PID. I have considered it for a while and no time like the present to do so.

Plan is to mix some of the range scrap and some monotype. I will likely do 5 pots of about 40 pounds each. Those will then be poured into ingots and kept in separate piles. I will then take the same amount from each pile and remix. This will make for 200 pounds of pretty much the same alloy. I then set that aside for use only in this rifle. Obviously each of those melts will be well fluxed to remove as much junk as possible before it gets into the casting pot.