Bumping up little boolits to bigger boolits

[Swagerman]

Got my swaging die back from Buckshot (Rick) the super machinists. He made a .432 diameter hole in the die body that was perfect.

I mainly wanted this special die to work with an over sized cylinder throat problem with one of my revolvers...but it seems well suited to bump up some bullets as the picture shows.

Observe the .38 special Meister HC round nose in 158 grain weight setting on the Lee Classic press nose punch, it gets gently thrust up into the die body until slightly attached to the ejector stem SWC shape... not fully swaged at this point...just enough to hang from the ejector stem.

Now we lower the nose punch back down enough to slip in a Hornady .44 caliber gas check under the hanging .38 caliber bullet.

Then ram the gas check up into the swage die body against the hanging bullet (now a SWC shape) until it reaches its up ward limit of preset travel.



Then you get a bumped up bullet in size with gas a check, the gas check adds .04 tenths grains to the bullet's weight...which is now a 164 grains in .44 special mode.

Note the Berry 162 grain plated bullet with gas check swaged to its base, the increased weight is 166 grain. However the plated bullet had to have its base tapered before the GC could be applied.

Jim

[creekwalker]

Still learning here so bear with me a bit. As I understand it you take a sutible cast/swaged bullet then reswage it to another diameter and configuration in the bump process. I can understand this and see where it could be a simpler way to get the desired bullet. Where I begin to get confused though is why not swage the correct sized bullet to begin with. Is it due to the lack of avalibility of such swage die's or their cost? Sorry to appear so igonarant, but just don't get it yet. BTW love the way your press is set up, you do good work.

Creekwalker

[Swagerman]

Creekwalker, there are no hard fast rules to bullet swaging, I merely do these bump bullets to some times obtain a certain weight...like the ultra lite 164 grain bullet for .44 special work.

Far as I know, there isn't any commercial availability that lite in a .44 caliber bullet...then what I don't know could fill lake Superior.

If you use smaller weight than 160 to 165 grain in .44 caliber, you are going to be shooting a POI (point of impact) a lot lower than your point of aim.

I once did some experimenting with .45 Colt caliber using 145 grain bullets which were real tiny pills. But I made them deep hollow base by swaging and round nose if I remember right.

The firearm was a nice old 2nd model S&W that had been converted from its original .455 to .45 Colt.

This gun had to be pointed at the top of the target about 7 to 8 inches above the POI...but it grouped very nice as my picture shows.

The reason bullets too lite shoot like that is the fact the guns recoil is drastically altered by the bullet leaving the barrel too quickly. Sounds screwier, but check it out and become a believer.

Jim

[garandsrus]

Swagerman,

Pretty cool... Where did you get the top punch from?

John

[Swagerman]

That is a Herter's shell-holder, with a flat top punch shaft going through the shell-holder primer hole, its threaded on that end and secured with a nut.

My Lee Classic press has the automatic bullet ejector mounted on it, and the bottom flat base portion is made to insert the Herter's shell-holders with different shape nose punches.

It occured to me, you may be asking about the ejector stem in the swaging die, it is a moving stem that is SWC. I made it on my mini-lathe. The rising ejector stem in the swaging die body is what the bullet pushes against as you ram the bullet up into the die. My ejector apparatus pushes the stem back down and ejects the bullet after being swaged.

One of the few things I can master on the small lathe...I'm no machinest, my work is pretty crude at times.

I have three Lee shell-holders for it, they screw on and off and easy to change out.

There are a lot of my pictures posted on other threads in this swaging section, they show more of the shell-holder capabilities.

Jim

[Buckshot]

Still learning here so bear with me a bit. As I understand it you take a sutible cast/swaged bullet then reswage it to another diameter and configuration in the bump process. I can understand this and see where it could be a simpler way to get the desired bullet. Where I begin to get confused though is why not swage the correct sized bullet to begin with. Is it due to the lack of avalibility of such swage die's or their cost? Sorry to appear so igonarant, but just don't get it yet. BTW love the way your press is set up, you do good work.

Creekwalker

................Issue here is that you cannot swage a lump of lead into a boolit with lube grooves in a simple swage die. Well, technicly you COULD, but you'd have to melt it to get it out, which rather defeats the purpose FLoodgate put up some lovely photo's of a die setup to actually swage a lube grooved boolit.

Since liquids aren't compressable, you make a swage die (Or bump die, if you will) that takes a lubed boolit and modifies it's shape under pressure, with the lube in the grooves remaining.



This is such a die. In goes your 148gr WC and what you get out is the same slug but in this case it has a hollow base now (see plunger).



The same die will take any lubed boolit design and turn it into a FN or a FN with a HB depending on the base plunger installed.

A) A regular 148gr WC with a HB added.
B) A Lee 358-158 RF which is now a FNHB
C) A Lyman 358430 which is a 200 gr RN and is now a FNHB

In addition the die bumps them to .363" for use in a 38 S&W. Slugs B&C were cast from WW alloy so it's not limited to pure lead.

.................Buckshot

[GLL]

Jim:

BEAUTIFUL 2nd Model S&W in .45Colt !

Jerry

[Swagerman]

Thank you for the compliment, GLL, on my old 2nd model. One of my faves for sure.

(Deleted part of the original paragraphs, as per usual I mis-understood Ricks comments)

Man, I'll sure be glad when this stinking cold and snow goes aawaay, getting cabin fever.

Jim

[garandsrus]

Swagerman,

I think that Rick is saying that you can't add lube grooves through swaging since you would not be able to eject the boolit... They need to already be there in the "donor" boolit, and be full of lube, if you want them to be there after swaging.

John

[GLL]

Buckshot:

What would I need to bump a Lyman 358430 195 gr. RN into a FN similar to your "C" in the photo?
I am not familiar with the 358490.

I have a Rockchucker I could dedicate to the operation.

I considered having a mould cut but this might be more cost effective and fun to experiment with. I have never done any swaging before.

Jerry

[Buckshot]

............The above would be about the simplist answer. Up top is obviously the die body and it's threaded 7/8-14 for a regular reloading press. Below that and to the left is a nose form punch to create a 'button nosed' WC. To the right of it is a full SWC nose punch mounted on the ejector stem. The ejector stem goes up through the depth stop.

By screwing this up or down in the die decreases or increases the room inside the die that can form the boolit. Some is also available by screwing the die body up or down in he press. On the bottom is the base punch that goes into the press' ram. In this case it's to form a HB. Not as elegant as the system Swagerman uses, but to eject the boolit you tap the ejector rod down with a brass or lead hammer.



These above, were created in the die shown. The one weakness of a simple die like this is that there is no provision to bleed off lead. Once it's set you have to form the slugs by feel. It's not a terribly big deal because muscle memory is soon in play. Since the nose form punch is up against the depth stop, you won't accomplish much if the alloy is soft enough besides possibly extruding some past the nose or base plungers by laying on the press handle

....................Buckshot

[GLL]

Rick:

Thank you !

I send a PM with my other questions.

Jerry

[Swagerman]

I would like to caution those who will be attempting bullet swaging for the first time, and what press will work best for them.

Well, to re-shape, or re-size bullet nose or base configuration, to make HB or HP, you will need to shorten the reloading press ram stroke...most any good sturdy press will work, but some have their limits as to the linkage base pin diameter strength.

For ease of bullet swaging operation the ram and its attached shell holder (nose punch) requires a swage release point in its upward stroke into the swaging die. (We are looking for a top-out break free point that can be adjusted by screwing the swaging die up or down in the press)

Otherwise you are ramming the bullet up into a swage die body and guessing on how much pressure is mentally needed to swage a bullet. Too much applied pressure and you've got a flat wad cutter, too little pressure and you don't get what you were hoping to make.

You can shorten the ram stroke by either cutting the rams linkage bar, or machine the ram on a lathe to make it shorter...or in my case with the Lee Classic press, you only have to shorten the shell holder which is a screw on or off affair. The Lee Classic press is an inexpensive device that is plenty strong to handle such work as we are talking about.

Though you could use a Rockchucker, but sometime back the RCBS rep told me over the phone he didn't recommend it...I have no idea why he said that, as I frankly disagree with it and think it could be made to work with a few alterations to its ram or linkage. Those reps probably don't know diddly about swaging.

All this is not real simple but requires some machinist work. You can either do it yourself or find someone who has the equipment and skills to do it...a local machine shop won't be cheap.

There is a tremendous amount of things you can do in bullet swaging, it is mucho fun to experiment, you just have to get your feet wet by wading into the deep end of the swaging pool.

Good luck and much success.

Jim

[Lloyd Smale]

I did the same thing making little.41 swcs out of 38s by using a gas check but never thought to try allready lubed ones. I just swadged them and used tumble lube. They shot real well to until i screwed up my nose punch.

[GLL]

Jim:

Thank you for the additional information.

Perhaps I will just buy a LEE Classic to experiment and keep my Rockchucker set up for sizing stuff.

Once I get started I will PM you about the details for the conversion. I have a lathe and access to a full macine shop to do simple machining but I am a geologist not a machinist ! I am very good at smashing things with a 15 pound sledge hammer but not at precision machining !

Jerry

[Swagerman]

Jerry, be assured I'm not trying to talk you out of using the RCBS RC, but the Lee is better suited to do all the things I've described.

The Lee Classic (single stage) is also better to convert the ram shell holder to take the Herter's shell holders which can accept my nose and base punch stems with the nuts fastened on them.

I once had a C-H Jr. Champion press, they don't make them anymore, it was comparable to the RC in strength, but the linkage pin broke on me from about 700 swaged bullets.

Then I tried it with a brand new Lyman Orange Crusher press, the linkage pins kept bending and breaking, went through two of them and had a third pin but gave up and sent the press back to Midsouth.

I'll be glad to help in any way I can, but best take it to email.

Jim

[yeahbub]

Swagerman, I was reading what you said about the need to modify a press to successfully swage bullets. I was wondering if this becomes necessary because the dies may not posess sufficient thread length or adjustment range? I use C-H 4D dies in several calibers and have never had to modify a press and most of my shooting consists of cast/sized/lubed boolits which are then swaged to get the desired nose/heel shape, using hollow and flat-base heel punches. I had used a Hornady 007 press (the old heavily cast aluminum one) and the Lee Classic and plan to get a Redding UltraMag due to the location of the linkage points which make for a more rigid design stressing only the portion of the press that the dies screw into. My usual method is to set the dies to have the boolit all but completely swaged as the stroke approaches top dead center (TDC) where ram pressure is at maximum allowing for minor variations in boolit volume in the die. Any that are oversize are readily apparent in the resistance to further ram movement and can be ejected and set aside for a later die adjustment to handle the heavy ones. The Lee Classic has a stop on the linkage to prevent achieving TDC, which simplifies some swaging tasks and protects the press from those who use the "bigger hammer" approach, since the gold anodized linkage parts are crucible particle steel rather than more expensive machined pieces.

[Swagerman]

Swagerman, I was reading what you said about the need to modify a press to successfully swage bullets. I was wondering if this becomes necessary because the dies may not possess sufficient thread length or adjustment range? I use C-H 4D dies in several calibers and have never had to modify a press and most of my shooting consists of cast/sized/lubed boolits which are then swaged to get the desired nose/heel shape, using hollow and flat-base heel punches. I had used a Hornady 007 press (the old heavily cast aluminum one) and the Lee Classic and plan to get a Redding UltraMag due to the location of the linkage points which make for a more rigid design stressing only the portion of the press that the dies screw into. My usual method is to set the dies to have the boolit all but completely swaged as the stroke approaches top dead center (TDC) where ram pressure is at maximum allowing for minor variations in boolit volume in the die. Any that are oversize are readily apparent in the resistance to further ram movement and can be ejected and set aside for a later die adjustment to handle the heavy ones. The Lee Classic has a stop on the linkage to prevent achieving TDC, which simplifies some swaging tasks and protects the press from those who use the "bigger hammer" approach, since the gold anodized linkage parts are crucible particle steel rather than more expensive machined pieces.

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Answer:

It may have been the height of the ram travel more so than the die adjustment, some press rams are just built too darn long.

Anyway, I started out using Hornady 07 press, C-H Jr. Champ, tried the Lyman piece of junk with it wobbly linkage system, then begin the Odyssey of Herter's presses...the No. 3, and the Super O Maximum press. Only the Herter presses seem to be workable at that point. They both had 1/2 inch diameter linkage pins, whereas the other one's I mentioned were only 3/8 diameter.

Ram height was to much all of them except the Herter's Maximum, it has a two position linkage adjustment. The No. 3 model had to have its linkage bar shorten 1/2 inch then attached to the ram again.

I'm not kidding about this TDC being critical to good bullet swaging...it is.

Referring to the Lee Classic as second rate metal is not going to wash with me, mine has far surpassed a lot of use in the last 2 to 3 years. If it were going to break it would have done it by now.

Some of those other presses I first mentioned went belly up on me after only a few hundred rounds were done...linkage pins broke as there was too much stress being applied in swaging.

Maybe its because I do use the ram height shorten modifications to reduce pressure stress when achieving TDC position. Anyway, its working for me.

The Redding press sounds like a good one to use.

Jim

[yeahbub]

Hmmm. I didn't intend to give the impression that I thought the Lee Classis is somehow less-than. I've been using it with glee for a year or so for loading and swaging. I did have a linkage fracture, which really surprised the folks at Lee (and me). After some examination and discussion among my peers, it's believed to be due to some contamination in the particle steel prior to manufacture, but Lee sent replacements and all has been well for the last 1000 boolits or so. I consider that to be a sufficient test of the durability of the Classic and expect no further difficulty. As a former machinist and die maker, I can attest to the appropriateness of CPS parts for a number of applications. It's one of the reasons we get such a nice press for the price we do.

[yeahbub]

GLL, your intention to modify the Lyman 358430 is an excellent idea and is what more than half of my swaging activities consist of. You have an excellent casting to start with, which will require nothing more than sizing/lubing to fill the grooves to prevent them from being swaged shut, and a die with the desired ogive and meplat diameter. C-H 4D will build a die with the ogive built into the top of the die and the meplat will match the ejector pin diameter, of which they use several standard diameters. I've also had them make a "gas check heel punch" to swage a gas check shank on a flat/bevel base design, so gas checks are an option as well. Mine is very similar to the Lee 358-158-RF in ogive and meplat, so that's the one I start with. The added advantage to swaging them is that they're all functionally identical, having come from the same die. And it's fun. . . . .