Everything thats wrong with hi-tech gear in primative seasons

[NVScouter]

Here is an exerpt from an article I just read:

"The .45 Caliber Big Game Muzzleloader -

Can't, Won't, Can Do's and a Surprise or Two

By Randy D. Smith

If you're interested in hunting with muzzleloading rifles you have, no doubt, read the ads espousing the extreme performance capabilities of the high velocity, .45 caliber in-line. Some of the claims are pretty impressive and can be quite alluring.

Projectile velocities of over 2,300 feet per second from 26" and 28" stainless steel fluted barrels driven by massive powder charges and ignited perfectly by hot 209 ignition systems quicken our heart rates and stir our imaginations to visualize those two hundred yard shots that strike down elusive trophy bucks. Our palms sweat as we fill out the order for this 21st Century space age marvel that will totally counteract the handicaps placed upon us by black powder propellants and ramrods.

Finally, we can take advantage of primitive firearms hunting seasons with a rifle that will rival many fine smokeless powder models. "This truely makes me sick.

I wish people could see the forest through the trees while hunting. Why look at it like a compitition? Just enjoy the hunt, get the time by yourself/friends/family.

General season if open to anything I'm fine with any legal arm. Use a super duper rifle or scoped crossbow sited to 150 yards. But these special primitive seasons were created for people that want the extra fair chase challenge. Dont try and ruin it with Hi-Tech garbage, it improves your kill rate (not hunt) and screws the guy doing it right. Dont play the barely legal game and skirt the season's reason for being created.

Am I off base?

[richhodg66]

No you're not.

I love the Kansas muzzle loader season in September and for years, they made scopes illegal, I liked it that way. They have been wittling away that season for a while now and soon I doubt it'll exist. Scopes are now legal, the archery season runs concurrent with it and there is a youth season for a week before it now just in the past few years.

I like inlines too, and have used a relatively crude one to take a few deer, but I like my old Hawken.

BTW, when I bow hunted, I used long bows and recurves, I feel pretty much the same way. High tech is fine, but in a season that is meant for high tech.

[Smoke4320]

I have mixed feeling on this .. liked my old 45 cal TC hawken #11 cap days but don't miss the cap not firing the load occasionally ..
don't really like the 150 grain loads or the smokeless powder Muzzleloaders.. just seem to get by just fine on 88 Grs FFG and 209 primer even switching back to 20-1 lead for projectiles
so mixed feeling I have

[quilbilly]

I absolutely agree but it is human nature. When I was a bowhunter, I felt the same way about bows with training wheels. Now I wish all the ML seasons were patched round ball seasons but I am old enough with eyes aged accordingly to wish scopes were allowed even with PRB. The way things are going, I am thinking about agitating for a 6 month atlatl season.

[9.3X62AL]

The way things are going, I am thinking about agitating for a 6 month atlatl season.

THAT is old-school in 3 dimensions! I like that reasoning.

My areas (CA D-8 and D-14) offer an archery-only early season; general season allows all firearms types, no set-asides for primitive firearms. Our general seasons are generally 4-6 weeks too early, as well. One resolution that would address both questions would be to offer a 2-week primitive firearms season in December, much like Michigan does with their "deep-snow" late hunt. I would specify loose black powder only--muzzle loader only--patched round ball only--iron sights only. Maybe Barnes can come up with a replacement non-lead roundball for the application.

[dilly]

You can hunt with atlatls in Missouri. I think they include it in the bow or black powder season or something.

[rush1886]

You are 100% NOT off base. A "Primitive weapons" hunt should be just that!

Here in my state of residence, seasons are designated as primitive, and your rifle must meet certain criteria: load from the muzzle only, with a projectile within .01" of nominal bore diameter, eliminating the plastic cup crowd, and the ignition source must be exposed, not contained, eliminating the 209's, and open sighted-no scopes.

After 20 yrs of hunting with percussion and flintlock guns, 50 & 54 caliber, taking mule deer, prong horns, elk, and an American Bison, I too get a bit po'd, when some yahoo starts talking about hunting with "a muzzleloader", and proceeds to produce one of the modern caricatures.

In Idaho, if you choose to do so, you may carry one of the modern inlines, even scoped, in any "general" or "any-weapon" season. If you apply for, and obtain a tag for, any of the "primitive weapon only" seasons, packing an inline will get you in some serious hot water. This is how it should be, IMHO.

Carry on Sir!

[siamese4570]

I guess that's why they have chocolate and vanilla. Don't really care what everybody else does, I'll still keep using my flintlock or caplock. I thought that I had gone all "hi-tec" last year when I put together a caplock with a fast twist barrel for use with conical lead boolits. oh well....

oh and one more thing, I use a single shot 45-70 with cast boolits at bp velocity loads during modern rifle season. worked just fine.
Siamese4570

[starmac]

Personally I like the idea of primitive weapons meaning exactly what it says in black and white, but it is kind of like the constitution, it seems they are both open to interpretation.

[M-Tecs]

My take is a little different. I play within the law. Most states have long since moved away from a "Primitive weapons season" to anything goes muzzleloaders. Some states are moving to straight wall centerfire single shot rifles as “Primitive Weapons”. I think this is a mistake but if it legal my original 45/70 trapdoors and Winchester High Walls would become my rifles of choice.

I hunt with stick bow, compound bow, iron sight handgun, scoped handgun, iron sight centerfire rifle, scoped centerfire rifle, scoped slug gun and in muzzleloaders traditional sidelocks with real PB and patched round balls to smokeless powder muzzleloaders.

As long as it is legal method I cannot find fault with anyone’s hunting method. I can find fault with the laws and work to change them.

The State Legislators are the ones that make the laws. I have successfully lobbied to have the hunting laws changed three times so it can be done.

If you don’t like the law work to change it but please don’t tell me my LEGAL choice of hunting method makes you “sick”

[NVScouter]

I'm actually "OK" with in-lines that are held to the same range restrictions as a cap or flintlock.

I choose to hunt with a reflex deflex or recurve bow for archery. Some of the new bows are less than 4#, 60# draw with 80% let off, and shooting 100fps over mine with mechanical broadheads and illuminated pins out to 80y. I dont care for that but I can handle it.

Sabots are old school tech thats come back in a big way...just like the Accutrigger is based off a 1890ish design. 209 ingition and 50g block charges are pushing it. My new Remmington improved #10 caps I just got put new life into my .36 revolver. Posative ignition can be had my a clean well maintained firearm..or a 209. The advantage isnt in the shot or reload in my opinion. But again I can live with that.

Iron sites and a rifle designed for 100y shooting with a skilled person able to hunt to 250y makes it primative. If anybody can grab the rifle toss in 3 charges, a sabot'd .44 mag bullet, line up the 50/100/150/200/250/300/350/400/450/500 bar on the scope and hit...you just missed the point.

[dragon813gt]

I guess I don't care because PA has two distinct seasons. There is a week long muzzleloader season that runs along w/ archery and is before rifle. And then there is the late Flintlock season that runs after rifle. The flintlock season runs for more than a week. So use what's legal during the seasons.

Here is what's going to eventually happen. The wrong people are going to find out about how powerful the newer muzzle loaders are. Same thing for shotgun slugs. When they realize how powerful and how far they can reach they are going to raise hell over it. That's when pressure is going to be put on the game commissions to reduce season lengths or change what is allowed to be used. This is not good for any hunter. People have less free time than ever so I understand wanting to maximize your chance of taking an animal.

[NVScouter]

My take is a little different. I play within the law.

As long as it is legal method I cannot find fault with anyone’s hunting method. I can find fault with the laws and work to change them.

I agree and as sportsmen/women we need to be involved with our State Fish and Game departments to do so. I've had about 50/50 sucess here.

"If you don’t like the law work to change it but please don’t tell me my LEGAL choice of hunting method makes you “sick"

Sorry its my opinion based on the experiences of my life. My Uncle was one of the main reasons Nevada has a muzzleloader season. He didnt give a darn about anything else and just did his own thing in the 60s. He found more folks like him and they became friends and when it got harder to compete with more hunters with modern arms did something about it. That was the point, spirit, and intent of the season.

I believe in the spirit of the law, but we are held to its letter.

I was born on the Rodeo grounds while my Dad rode bulls to keep us fed. Many of the men that mentored me worked hard on a handshake and didnt mince words. I've become more open to different ideology but when you play with the law a part of you knows its not what the intent was. Right or Wrong. If a law morally offends you then its your choice to break it...but do so with conviction.

Does it mean so much to you to get a big early buck like that? Would it tingle your guilt if you met an old traditional hunter that had been after him for 4 seasons? Would it be worth it to you?

[GeezerinNH]

NH bent over to the 2 big companies, TC and GM whose shills said if it loads from the muzzle it is primitive. Bull!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My own opinion differs For the ML season it should be period rifles only (Although I only shoot Flintlocks even in the general season). Note both were in NH (Knight were made by GM)

For the guys who say TC percussion cap guns (period kind) can misfire on the first shot I say learn how to make them fire. My flint's are faster than their cap locks, buy a better gun you want to be primitive.

I would love to have NH go to period style rifles for the ML season but it will never happen IMHO

[M-Tecs]

Primitive (to me) is 1840’s period technology using real black powder in flint or sidelock. That is what I believe primitive seasons should be. By the way scopes started to be used in the 1840’s.

If I made the laws the muzzleloading season would true a “primitive season” with no inlines. Most state have moved away from a period primitive season to a muzzleloader season that allows scopes, inlines and any choice of powder. I lobbied against allowing inlines in my homestate. We lost. It’s hard to misinterpret the intent of the law when it changes from sidelocks using patched round ball to inline scoped rifles.

I started muzzeloading hunting during the regular rifle season before we had a muzzleloading seasons. Same for handgun. Went to my first Rendezvous in 1974 and I started building muzzleloaders in 1976 so I have pretty good understanding of what the intent of the laws where in the early days and what they are today.

I've become more open to different ideology but when you play with the law a part of you knows its not what the intent was. Right or Wrong. If a law morally offends you then its your choice to break it...but do so with conviction.

You lost me here. We are talking about a type of legal firearm that you don’t like. What does that have to do with breaking the law?

Does it mean so much to you to get a big early buck like that? Would it tingle your guilt if you met an old traditional hunter that had been after him for 4 seasons? Would it be worth it to you?

If someone is using a legal firearm I would be glad that they got a nice deer. I am partially color blind and I don’t track very well so with the bow I limit my shot to 30 yards. I did take one at 32. Two years ago I pasted on a 163” Whitetail at 46 yards. My buddy took him with a 54 yard shot. Not a shot I would take but I still was glad for my buddy. I also enjoy hunting with my original Trapdoors. When I do I am self-limiting my range but I have no issues with someone else using whatever legal firearm they what even if it gives them an advantage over my weapon of choice.


I don't really care what everybody else does as long as it is legal. Again if I don’t like the law I will work to change it.

If the law allows for state of the art smokeless muzzleloaders as well as well as smoothbore flintlock trade guns who am I (or you) to state the one is more “Right or Wrong” than the other?

While I don't agree with it the intent is pretty clear here.
http://www.wlf.louisiana.gov/hunting...isiana-seasons

Effective with the 2012-2013 Louisiana hunting season, the following firearms are legal for use during the primitive firearm deer season:

1. Rifles or pistols, .44 caliber minimum, or shotguns 10 gauge or smaller, all of which must load exclusively from the muzzle or cap and ball cylinder, use black powder or approved substitute only, take ball or bullet projectile only, including saboted bullets, including primitive firearms known as “in line” primitive firearms, and

2. Single shot, breech loading rifles, .35 caliber or larger having an exposed hammer that uses metallic cartridges loaded either with black powder or modern smokeless powder. All of the above may be fitted with magnified scopes.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Some of us have felt that way about archery for a long while. Not many of us long or recurve string pullers left. But I can live with that. Two fellers that started with the hi-tech things are also learning to shoot recurves without sights.

But let me ask you caplockers a question.. Why do you need that type of ignition ? Is not a flinter actually far more primitive ? So then I would ask .. how about a matchlock... I built one of them too .
I see it all as a point of reference or prefernce. I would rather my neighbor is out there leveling another corn cruncher with a in-line caliber .45 super blaster than my wife taking out that same doe with our 2001 Chevy. Every hunter has his place and I am glad they are out there.
Now I will go back and read what all the others think.
Mike in Peru

[357maximum]

I have carried several different kinds of bow during "gun" season, my buddy always carries a homemade stickbow during the "gun" season....just because the next yahoo wants to carry a super duper inline does not mean you have to....what is that man taking from YOUR EXPERIENCE? If it is legal to do so.... use what you want and do not worry about what the guy 1/2 mile away is doing is how I do what I WANT TO DO....just because he legally totes the equivalent of a modern gun does not mean I HAVE TO.

[dk17hmr]

If it fires a projectile and is legal to hunt with I will use it after I have "mastered" it. I bow hunt primarily with my compounds because I have lost the muscle memory and instinctive hold for my recurves...although I am getting it back daily shooting several arrows a night.

The thing about inlines over traditional, scopes over irons, compounds over stick bows...they are easier/more ethical for those that lack time.

Every year I write the Wyoming Game and Fish and request a late season primitive deer hunt (draw only) in my area to get a chance at the massive bucks I see when I'm coyote hunting in November. In the letter I ask specifically for an iron sight flint or cap lock rule. Open ground iron sighted muzzleloader hunt during the rut would get me going for sure.

But without a doubt if that became a draw tag it would turn into a not so primitive hunt.....after a lot of people complaining about not being able to fill their tag with the equipment requirements.

[M-Tecs]

Every year I write the Wyoming Game and Fish and request a late season primitive deer hunt (draw only) in my area to get a chance at the massive bucks I see when I'm coyote hunting in November. In the letter I ask specifically for an iron sight flint or cap lock rule. Open ground iron sighted muzzleloader hunt during the rut would get me going for sure.

In most states this goes through the State Legislator. Find a State Rep and a State Senator that is willing to sponsor a bill for you. The problem is you never have a set time when the bill goes to the floor. If you want to testify you may only have an couple of hours’ notice that it is coming to the floor.

I have done this 7 or 8 times. I was successful three times and my bills became law. DNR and G&F make recommendations not law. For a season to become law it has to be approved by the State Legislator. Not sure this is true in all States but the couple I have dealt with this is the process.

[Lefty Red]

I think the main objective to any hunt is to HUMANELY AND QUICKLY kill the animal. I don't care squat about how great you feel about what type of weapon you use, if its not going to allow the animal to suffer then you have problems IMHO.

Hawken users don't like Inlines.
Flinters don't think we should allow Cap guns.
Holy Black users turn their noses at Pydrox users.
Patched ball users hate sabot users.

Extra seasons are about thinning out a large population of game that is over populated. Its not about who has the most period correct outfit!